Recently I interviewed Bridgit Danner, as she discussed toxic mold in detail, including some of the common symptoms, how to test for mold, the different treatment options, and how it relates to Graves’ disease and Hashimoto’s thyroiditis. If you would prefer to listen the interview you can access it by Clicking Here [1].
Dr. Eric Osansky:
With me, I have Bridgit Danner, and we are going to discuss toxic mold. Bridgit has been a licensed acupuncturist since 2004 and a certified functional diagnostic nutrition practitioner since 2015. After losing everything to toxic mold, Bridgit now educates about toxins and how to detoxify through a functional approach. You can find her at BridgitDanner.com and on Instagram @bridgit.danner. Welcome, Bridgit.
Bridgit:
Thanks, Eric. I am always happy to connect with you.
Dr. Eric:
Same here. Of course we have chatted many times in the past. For those who are not familiar with you, could you give a brief background?
Bridgit:
Sure. Unlike many health practitioners, I didn’t get into health because of my own health. I got into it because of my mission and my cause. I was a young environmentalist. I had this interest in natural medicine, and I thought it could be a great way to teach people to be more environmentally conscious. That is how I decided to go to Chinese medicine school. Then I opened a practice in Portland, Oregon, doing the normal things: treating back pain and stress, and all the things an acupuncturist does. I did a little bit of stuff around environmental awareness, but I lived in Portland, which is a very aware city, probably one of the most in this country for sure.
Then I developed my own environmental illness and didn’t know it. I was undiagnosed from toxic mold for 7-8 years. I was going through all the symptoms we will discuss later: fatigue, anxiety, hormonal issues, a lot of immune issues, chronic pain. I was learning about health trying to resolve my own health. I did really focus on some environmental threads, like toxins in my home and skin care. I completely revamped my diet. I was making my own bone broth. Super healthy. I was never quite getting better. I was always cycling in and out, worse in the winter. No surprise now.
When I eventually hit a health low, I was getting some IV therapy at a naturopathic clinic, and they asked me what changed in my home. We opened up the possibility that there could be mold in the home. Did testing. My family started on the journey of resolving mold in our bodies and our home. That influenced my practice, too. I was so passionate about detoxing and knew so much about it. I was focused on women’s hormones, but I slowly morphed it to talk more about detox. Now especially to talk about mold. As I was going through it, I didn’t have the energy to teach about mold or share, but now, on the other side of it, I have a lot of knowledge. I am trying to spread awareness that it’s not as uncommon as you think. If I can save someone four years in the journey or even one month on the journey of questioning if you have toxic mold illness, I am happy to be able to do it.
Dr. Eric:
It’s safe to say that mold is commonly overlooked. I have worked with a number of patients where mold wasn’t on their radar. Honestly, initially, especially years ago, it wasn’t on my radar either. When someone is not getting better, that’s an area you want to look at. With you, you probably now evaluate people right away when it comes to mold and looking at their health history.
When it comes to symptoms of toxic mold, can you talk not only about the symptoms you experienced, but some of the more common symptoms in general?
Bridgit:
Like thyroid illness, it’s a long list, and there are a lot of overlaps. That’s tricky. The two most common are brain fog and fatigue. Because it’s inflaming the entire body, we all have different weak and vulnerable systems. For one person, it could be a lot of respiratory stuff. For another, it could be mood. For kids, it could be attention or behavior issues. I never did have skin issues, but some people do. Digestive issues that won’t resolve, there is often a mold piece. What you said is true, Eric. If things aren’t responding, as you change your diet, take supplements, meditate, ding, ding, ding. There is probably some kind of toxic element going on. It’s a long list.
Some of my earlier symptoms probably aren’t the ones that a practitioner would think sounds like mold. The hormone ones are key. I was having spotting and off periods. I don’t even think there is so much association between that and mold, but there is a huge association. For a typical client, like I was, I was about 40ish when I was seeking help. You say, “I’m tired. I’m anxious.” They say, “You’re just a typical American woman.” Sometimes it gets overlooked because there is such a constellation of symptoms out there.
Dr. Eric:
Even the common symptoms you mentioned, like brain fog and fatigue, there could be overlap with other conditions as well. If someone is experiencing those symptoms, they initially wouldn’t think they have mold. Neither would practitioners. To be fair, most people will have symptoms other than brain fog and fatigue, too.
Bridgit:
I would say severity, inability to resolve them. If we open the conversation to environment, there is usually some suspected source. Not all the time. Sometimes we don’t know it. I was in my own house a long time with no suspicion. There has to be that awareness piece. We are trying to develop a mold quiz. It can’t be a symptom quiz. We can’t just say, “You’re tired. You’re having acne. You have mold.” It has to be the home or some source although it can be in your past plus the symptoms. In a way, it’s a bit easier. As you get in testing, we know what we’re looking for in the home and body to go with the symptoms.
Dr. Eric:
Why is mold toxic to some people and not others? At least it seems that way. There are four or five people in the household, and only one is sick due to the mold.
Bridgit:
This is a great question and why I think mold can get overlooked or downplayed, especially within a family unit. If the husband is fine, he may not want to rip apart the house. It’s health history, genetics, age, infections, chronic stress. I know you know about Lyme. Same with Lyme. We all get bit by different bugs, and we don’t all end up getting Lyme if we are potentially exposed. Some people get it really severely. Maybe it’s dormant and it comes out later when there is more stress. Lyme and mold have quite a bit of correlation as does thyroid conditions.
I don’t know if you know Jaban Moore, a functional chiropractor. He feels he was exposed to Lyme as a child. He lived an outdoors lifestyle. Later when he was in a moldy basement apartment, that is when his Lyme started to manifest. It can weaken your immune system, which is when you see other potentially latent infections. It’s a cocktail. It’s about how you detoxify genetically.
Are you pooping? If you are not pooping well, then you are recirculating toxins back in that you are meant to be pooping out. That could be a factor. How you eat, how you practice lifestyle. In my own case, and other cases I have seen, you can keep things somewhat at bay, just by having rockstar habits. It ultimately worked, just like it didn’t with me. I got some improvement by making all these changes, but I was still in a moldy home, so I was never really going to be able to kick it.
There are some genetic tests you can do about how well you make glutathione. They play in, but I still don’t think they are the only factor. I had a mother/daughter client. They were in the same home, the mother more so because the daughter was grown and had come in and out, but the mother had the dreaded gene for mold. The daughter didn’t. The mother’s levels were much higher than the daughter’s. But there are other factors, too. The mother is in her 70s. Sometimes genetics can show that you’re not clearing it very well. Even if you don’t have all the genetic predispositions, you can still be affected because chronically over time in a home, at first, you’re clearing it, but eventually you may lose the battle, and you’re not clearing it so well anymore.
Dr. Eric:
I agree. I’m glad you mentioned it’s not just the genetics. That does play a role. Even with my history of Lyme, there are biotoxins and mycotoxins with mold. Genes do play a role. With my history of Lyme, it wasn’t too severe. Did I do a better job of clearing some of the biotoxins? I was also diagnosed with Graves’ years ago and have been in remission and was taking care of my health, so maybe that’s why I wasn’t as symptomatic when it came to Lyme.
Same thing with mold. We will talk about addressing the cause of the mold. If you’re living in a moldy environment, the combination of the genetics and lifestyle factors will play a role, but you need to eventually get rid of the mold and remediate.
Let’s talk about some of the common ways we are exposed to mold first.
Bridgit:
The most common way that will make you really sick and symptomatic is being in a water-damaged building. There has been a roof leak, a plumbing issue, a ventilation issue. I interviewed one expert recently who said 100% of crawl spaces are moldy. Certainly not every house has a mold problem. It’s relative to your health. Pretty much every building will sustain some kind of water damage in its lifetime. How well you respond to that water damage is key. If you half-ass the job to remediate it, or whomever you hire does, that can linger. Maybe there is still some drip or humidity behind the wall. A lot of this is good home stewardship, which is not something I was aware of when this was going on for us.
We had our gutters not draining correctly. Some previous owner had done a lot of remodeling, putting in new additions that were not done correctly, so there was moisture in the walls. Nobody came to our house and thought it smelled or looked moldy. Potentially in humid climates, any time there is extra moisture, whether it’s from a leak or humidity, it can allow for mold to grow. It’s around.
Not all mold is dangerous. Not that much of it is super toxic. But in our indoor environment, it’s artificial. It’s not like the forest, so there is not correct competition or breakdown. It allows certain species that are dangerous to thrive. They are quietly thriving in the corner of your bathroom, getting picked out from the air circulation system. That’s the most common. Managing the humidity in your home. We had too high of humidity in our basement the entire time, and we had never run a dehumidifier. It was lack of awareness.
There is mold in food as well. It’s pretty common. It’s not usually the main factor as to why you get sick. The quantity usually isn’t enough. It can be something that can irritate you as you’re trying to heal from mold. It can irritate your digestive system. Some of the labs that do a lot of mold testing haven’t really found some widespread high levels of mold in your body based on food source.
Dr. Eric:
It’s mostly in the air. You brought up some good points about just because you can’t see the mold does not mean you don’t have a mold problem. You mentioned the crawl space. It could be under the floors or behind the walls. You can’t just go by whether or not you see mold. Some people will swear they don’t have a mold problem. But if you are not an expert in detecting mold, there is no way to know.
My next question is about testing. What do you recommend? Do you recommend having an indoor air specialist come by? There is micrometrics to order your own test kits. There is testing for microtoxins, which is completely different.
Bridgit:
It depends on your situation. Do you rent or own? You are not going to hire a mold inspector if you rent. It’s costly. If you own, I do think you should hire a reputable mold inspector. That’s a good first step. They will point out possible sources, like a moisture meter to notice moisture in the walls. They will notice the gutters aren’t draining correctly. They can do drywall and air samples. Not all of them are as good as others. Ours was good.
Be aware they are not health experts. They are passing off the first piece of information to you. It’s on you then to make next best decisions and get informed. We were not informed enough when we started taking our house apart, and we made it worse. Hopefully you will get some of my information before you do that, as it costs you a lot of money to make mistakes in the process.
You could also have mold in your workspace, your RV, a boat, anywhere you’re spending time. Sometimes starting with the mold plates, which are measuring more for mold growth rather than mold toxins that mold emits, that could be an affordable first step, and you could put them in various places. I interviewed someone about this recently as well. You don’t want to put it where you spend time, but you want also to put it in a basement and different places. Say it’s a workplace. You could do a couple plates there. They’re affordable. They will do a consultation with you. None of the ways are perfect though.
You mentioned the mycotoxin dust test. You can order it yourself. I like it because it’s testing for the part that is actually dangerous. As a practitioner, I like seeing that. It’s a little spendy, but it’s a pretty easy test to take. We did that in our own home.
The ERMI , or a cousin to that, I forget the name of it. This is a test that was developed for other purposes. Now it’s used a lot to see if there is toxic mold in the home. This also has some problems. If you ask me, not all of the types of mold are toxic. It’s measuring overall load. Some building inspectors do like it because they know how to interpret it. Sometimes the public buys it, and they don’t know how to interpret it. If you will self-test, there is not an easy answer. You might want to do a self-test, and some things are positive, which is when you know it’s time to get an expert opinion. Just like with a body, we can potentially miss things in testing. It’s good to know all your options so that you can test correctly. Sometimes it will take a couple tests in the same space. Really good mold inspectors will bore into the wall to get an air sample in there. Home testing can be really good and accurate, but know that you’re not done after an Ermi. It takes more than that.
Dr. Eric:
I agree they shouldn’t spend thousands of dollars on hiring someone and remediating because who knows how long they’ll be there. It’s worth asking the landlord. They may not do anything, but you never know. Sometimes they might. In that case, let’s say if the landlord isn’t willing to do anything, and someone is renting, would you recommend doing mycotoxin testing?
Bridgit:
Let’s say you’re renting, and you do see the floorboard is soft, and there is some visible mold by your bathtub. Bring that up to your landlord. “Hey, I know this could be dangerous to our health. If we get this resolved, I want it done correctly.” It’s often trying to get these things done cheaply when you are a landlord. You could potentially ask to test. Ask for the right kind of remediation. Be aware what that even is. Otherwise, if you don’t see anything visible, you may want to do a plate test or mycotoxin dust test. I wouldn’t say the landlord is going to pay for that right out of the gate. If you have that information, you could ask the landlord, “I suspected this. I did this testing myself. This is what I’d like to propose.”
Or maybe you want to break your lease. Over time, our rights will get stronger around this stuff as renters. It can be a big mess. Sometimes it’s better to move. Even our own home, and how much money we put into it, we didn’t stay there. It can be hard to thrive in the same space. Sometimes it’s better to move. But there is some home testing you can do as a renter. Or start the conversation with your landlord, and hopefully they have a good attitude about working with you.
Dr. Eric:
How about testing your body for mold?
Bridgit:
In the olden days, so to speak, not that long ago, they would run blood tests for different inflammatory markers and base that on they think you have mold. Now we do have a urine test for mycotoxins. It can potentially also get a false negative if you are not pushing out mycotoxins into the urine. I think it’s pretty rare. We see a lot of positives. It’s a pretty nice, easy at-home test. They are straightforward. They will tell you the type of mycotoxins, which will tell you the type of mold. It’s not necessarily a huge factor in your treatment, but it’s helpful to know. You could focus some binder treatment on different types of mycotoxins. We are lucky we have that now. It’s getting a little cheaper over time. That’s a great way to see the burden in your own body.
Dr. Eric:
I think you’re familiar with the visual contrast sensitivity test. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Bridgit:
That’s another early test. It’s not only for mold; it’s also testing for some other toxicity affecting your brain and visual abilities. You can do them at a clinic and sometimes online. My ex-husband and I both did it when we knew we were sick, and we both passed. It wasn’t accurate for us. That is my own experience. If you can do it for free online, it could be fun and helpful, but I wouldn’t personally rely on it. Maybe the ones in the clinic are more accurate. Maybe he and I were healing, so it wasn’t as bad. I was disappointed personally.
Dr. Eric:
I don’t know if this is true. I’ve heard different ones are more accurate than others. Surviving Mold, Ritchie Shoemaker’s test, is supposedly more accurate than others.
Bridgit:
That’s the one we did.
Dr. Eric:
That’s what I heard. I’m not sure how that differs from others. You did it, and it came back negative when mold was an obvious issue. It’s not specific for mold. Even if it’s positive, it doesn’t confirm that someone has a mold problem.
Bridgit:
He’s a real trailblazer in this space. We wouldn’t be having this conversation if not for him. There are some limits on what was available. He was a physician, so he did a lot of prescription-based stuff. This field is changing a lot quickly, and we are learning a lot of great stuff. A lot of people ask, “Do you do these blood tests?” There is no point anymore for the most part. Some practitioners still do them because they can take insurance, and it’s covered. Some of those markers are interesting to watch for inflammation and how it’s changing as you do your treatment. But they are not mold markers. There is only so much money we have for all this testing. You should put it in the most effective places.
Dr. Eric:
Agreed. Can you discuss how toxic mold can play a role in thyroid health and thyroid autoimmunity?
Bridgit:
When I ran my first mold event, there was some hurricane in Texas four years ago. I wanted to do a mold event, so people know if their houses are getting damaged. I couldn’t believe how many people wrote in saying, “I have Hashimoto’s and mold.” I found out I had Hashimoto’s markers at a low level probably two months before I found out I had mold. I am in remission now. It’s pretty common.
I don’t know about Graves’, but I see a lot of Hashimoto’s along with mold. It’s contributing to developing autoimmunity. It wrecks the gut. It’s hard on the liver. It makes the liver not function as well. It burdens the liver as a place of thyroid hormone conversion. If you don’t have autoimmunity, you could often still have poor conversion. Top down poor thyroid hormone production because it inflames your HPA axis. For me, for my female hormones, there was constant suppression of hormones being produced. There can be different hormonal patterns for everybody. Insulin can also be affected. Low thyroid, Hashimoto’s, pretty common with mold.
Dr. Eric:
I do see it with Graves’ patients, too. It definitely has an impact on the gut, as you said. We both know that not just Graves’ and Hashimoto’s, but all autoimmune conditions, most of the immune system cells are located in the gut. You need to have a healthy gut to have a healthy immune system. With any autoimmune condition, it could be a factor then. But I mainly focus on Graves’ and Hashimoto’s, I could say yes, with both. I see a good number of people where toxic mold is an issue.
Bridgit:
Food sensitivities can be another possible sign that you are dealing with toxic mold. What are they? What’s going on there? It’s some immune disruption, mucosal barriers damaged, leaky gut, inflamed gut. That has come up more lately when I talk to other experts. That’s another potential hidden sign of mold. You can barely eat anything without being irritated.
Dr. Eric:
Let’s get into treatment options for toxic mold. Which ones do you recommend?
Bridgit:
This is a happier part of this interview; there is a lot you can do. Definitely deal with your home. It’s not just your home anymore. Now the mycotoxins are in your clothing, your books. It depends to the extent of damage in your home. It’s hard for me to say without being involved in it, but for us, we lost everything inside the home. We couldn’t keep any of it. It was many years of being infected. I am going to go into body treatment, but just know that we moved to a temporary home and brought a normal amount of stuff: some clothes, etc. We ruined that temporary home in a matter of a couple months. Be careful that it’s not just your body; it’s being aware of what environment is following you as you move on. That’s important.
Sauna helped me a lot initially. Exercise, even when you are tired, you need to move your lymph. It’s important for your brain and detox to keep moving. Coffee enemas, I still do some of them for maintenance. I think they’re amazing. Dry brushing, I almost did every day when I was sick. It moves your lymph and energizes you and gets your circulation going. Epsom salt baths, easy thing you can do to support detox. Mini trampoline, something you can do throughout the day. Lymphatic massage, you can do.
A lot of this stuff is mobilization. It seems to work. If you are really sensitive and are not pooping, detoxing, some of these mobilizations could be giving you side effects. You have to measure how much mobilization you do versus how well you are detoxifying. Find that balance.
For supplements, binders are important. We can talk more about those. Glutathione, if tolerated, is helpful. Broccoli seed and sprout can be helpful. That pathway is important for detoxifying mycotoxins. Taking electrolytes is supportive. CoQ10, I like. Fish oil in high doses, especially if you are having trouble with your brain. Fiber supplements, I like. They can help heal your gut and brain barrier. Probiotics. Taking a multivitamin, getting those basics like Vitamin D and magnesium. Those are some of the core supplements.
From there, you may have to work on different body systems that need support. If you’re not pooping or not sleeping, working on different symptoms will still help those systems function correctly.
Dr. Eric:
Do you use binders such as zeolite, bentonite clay, activated charcoal?
Bridgit:
I use all of those. You can cycle different single ones. The citrus pectin can be a gentle one if you don’t tolerate charcoal. We mostly use ones that are a blend. I developed my own blend. Different mycotoxins respond to different binders. Sometimes having a blend is helpful for covering a lot of bases. There are different options for how you want to use them.
Dr. Eric:
How important do you think it is to have an air purification system in your home?
Bridgit:
I think that’s a good idea once you’re in a safe home. It’s a $1,000 mistake to buy one of those and put it in your moldy home. You won’t be able to bring it to your new home. We made that mistake, and I still hear other people make it. It will go in the machinery of that thing so you can’t bring it with you. Later, when you are in a safe place, change your home air filters often, the ones attached to your furnace system. Clean often. Keep dust under control. Make sure that your humidity is right, your drainage is right.
You don’t want to move into a permanent home right away because we are very sensitive, and we sometimes accidentally move into a place that has mold. You want to keep it a little loose for a year or two, especially if you are coming out of a major situation. I hear about it all the time.
Don’t invest super heavily into all the bells and whistles until you know you’re in a safe place. Open windows. Keep a clean home. Don’t buy toxic products to put in the home. That’s important. Up your game on building materials and rugs. Now you’re probably just sensitive to everything in the air. That’s how I became. You have to be on guard for air quality in general.
Dr. Eric:
When you were treating yourself for mold, I know not everybody has access to a sauna or would be willing to do coffee enemas, but how frequently did you do those two things?
Bridgit:
Sauna, you can do up to every day. You can now buy a pretty cheap home sauna thing. Don’t stick that in your moldy home and move it to your new home. We went to gyms; it’s different now. I was using saunas at a gym at least three times a week. But every day is even better if you can tolerate it. You can get a home unit or go to a gym.
Coffee enemas. I’m not a fan of doing them every single day because they can be rough on your tissue to do so often. But two or three times a week when you’re sick. I do one a week for maintenance. I find it to be a real quick win for me energy-wise. The coach who works for me, she does a binder enema if she goes into a moldy building, so that’s a cool option.
Dr. Eric:
Thanks for sharing. I’m glad you mentioned it because I didn’t think about getting a sauna in a moldy environment where you wouldn’t be able to bring it to your new place.
Bridgit:
You could put it on your porch or something. But that is one of the big mistakes people make. It’s logical. You think, “I’m here. I’m still here for some amount of time. Let me get this expensive air doctor.” But it’s ruined now. The way that mycotoxins work is they can adhere to plastic and fabric and get into motors and screens. That stuff is pretty much impossible to clean. Just be aware. It’s a sucky time in life when you are moving out and trying to move on, and you have all this stuff you can’t bring. It is not fun at all to be that careful and paranoid. But in the end, it’s usually what most people need. If you really have been quite exposed, as has your stuff, being loose with what you take with you will often come back on you. When you have to get rid of all it, you will be more depressed. If you’re listening, hopefully that just saved you some money.
Dr. Eric:
The last question I want to ask you is if you could give someone some action steps they would take if they are suspecting they might have mold. Relisten to this because you spoke about it. But if you could summarize and give a few action steps.
Bridgit:
Education is an important first step. If you are thinking maybe you do have mold, you can start perhaps with some kind of home testing. Getting some of those plates are quite affordable if you want to start with that as a renter or owner to experiment. We have an e-book on our site that links to different companies and helps you make a decision on home testing.
You could also do a home inspection for signs of moisture. I will refer people to our website to our free mold guide. You could visually inspect for possible intrusion. You could buy meters at Home Depot that can measure some things. Starting with some simple testing of the home. Then maybe some more advanced testing in the home. Body testing.
Unfortunately it’s a long process. It’s not simple. Some of the detox stuff I mentioned, anybody can do. If you’re not sure if you have mold, but you are feeling sluggish, can’t lose weight, I think everybody should be detoxing all the time. I haven’t stopped because I’m not in a moldy house. This is part of modern life. You need to detox all the time and make it part of your lifestyle. If you’re using red light therapy or jumping on your trampoline or getting out in nature with friends, this is critical. None of us are going to escape fatigue and early aging unless we get a sense of it.
Dr. Eric:
Thank you for sharing everything. The good news is you have some resources coming out. You have an upcoming summit focusing on toxic mold. You have a book coming out. They can visit your website BridgitDanner.com. Can you also talk about your upcoming book and summit?
Bridgit:
The summit starts on February 21, 2022. It’s free. It’s a week of different expert interviews. We had everybody do a slide presentation, so it’s detailed material. We talk about the home and the body and other ways to detox your home. That will be an evergreen free event.
Click Here [2] to register for the Toxic Mold Masterclass
My book is coming out around April 1. You can buy it through the summit, too.
I’m excited to have more resources so more people find out sooner. The education is super important as you go through the process so that you can go through it as efficiently as possible. We are trying to make a lot of affordable info as people deal with it.
Dr. Eric:
Thank you for sharing your experience with toxic mold. I’m sure everyone listening has some knowledge themselves to go out and learn some more if they are suspecting toxic mold. They now have an idea of what to do next. Also, they will hopefully attend your upcoming summit and read your book.
Bridgit:
Step by step. You don’t have to do everything at once. Do a little bit. If it’s needed for your family, it will be important, and it will pay off. Thank you for having me. I found out about my own thyroid issues through learning about mold. It’s so important, the work you’re doing as well.
Dr. Eric:
Thanks again, Bridgit.