Recently I interviewed Dr. Kasia Kines, as she discussed the Epstein-Barr virus, including how it can be a factor in thyroid autoimmunity. If you would prefer to listen the interview you can access it by Clicking Here [1].
Dr. Eric Osansky:
With me, I have Dr. Kasia Kines. We are going to be discussing Epstein-Barr Virus (EBV). How are you?
Dr. Kasia Kines:
Hello! I’m doing great. No sun here so far, but a good day.
Dr. Eric:
Good. Let me go ahead and give your bio. Then we will have you give a brief intro. Dr. Kasia is the CEO and founder of Global Epstein-Barr Virus Institute. She is a leader in recovery therapy for chronic Epstein-Barr Virus, an author, a wellness expert, a highly respected Doctor of Clinical Nutrition, and a graduate of the prestigious Bastyr University. Since 2005, Dr. Kines has built an international reputation as a functional nutritionist, from being sought after by Johns Hopkins University to her groundbreaking Amazon bestseller book Epstein-Barr Virus Solution, which I have read. I read her book a few years ago. When was it released?
Dr. Kasia:
- Time is flying.
Dr. Eric:
Wow. Definitely check out her book. I will talk more about it later. Dr. Kasia has developed an international, proprietary, evidence-based methodology to EBV recovery and a successful EBV recovery program for those suffering from EBV. Also, she trains other practitioners in her methodology and clinician EBV training and certification program and an EBV practitioner workshop. We could talk more about this later, especially your recovery program. Dr. Kines is on a mission to bring the truth about EBV and solution to one million people globally, so no one needs to suffer needlessly from this misunderstood virus and its complications.
Currently, she lives with her husband and their companion animals in Kingston, Washington. We were chatting before starting the interview, and she said she is going to be moving soon to Wisconsin.
Dr. Kasia:
The Madison area, yeah.
Dr. Eric:
Thanks for joining us, Dr. Kasia.
Dr. Kasia:
My pleasure. So happy to be here with you.
Dr. Eric:
I interviewed you about a year and a half ago, and that interview is on YouTube. If you could give a brief introduction for those who don’t know you. How did you start focusing on Epstein-Barr?
Dr. Kasia:
As the medical literature says, if your patient is on a protocol, has chronic issues with health, and is not responding to the protocol as expected, you should check into testing chronic EBV. My journey, just to simplify it, is a couple of things. I lost a very good friend to complications of MS. I was always asking the universe and the higher powers why her? What happened? Why couldn’t I help her? It was devastating. She was fighting it for almost 20 years. The student is asking the teacher. There were a lot of circumstances that came.
The last one was when a couple of my patients asked for my educated opinion on a book. If one asks you to read a book and you don’t have time, you can brush it off. But when a couple others do, you have to read it, whether you like it or not. I didn’t have time. It was Medical Medium. I read it on a plane to a conference. I almost fell off the chair just because I saw-When you do functional medicine or nutrition work, if you do your job, you keep attracting more and more complicated cases. Sometimes you will help so many people, but there are a few you just can’t, you hit the wall. You probably know that, too. You get so frustrated because instead of focusing on everyone you can help, you can’t sleep over those who have been struggling. Nobody knows why. You’re doing everything right. That was my pain. The longer I was in clinical practice, the harder the cases were. I lost hope. We did everything right, and it wasn’t happening.
When I was reading that book on the plane, it struck me that this was my population. These are the people who did not respond. I don’t know if you are familiar with that book, but it’s a man saying the spirit of compassion tells him all this information. The claims in the book were that the majority of chronic conditions were immunity problems like Hashimoto’s, chronic fibromyalgia, MS, are driven by this one virus. Here I am, so many years in practice, best training I could get in the country, and I had never heard of it. If half of this is true, I have to look into this.
From that point, I jumped into medical literature, and I never stopped. The rest is history. What I discovered blew me away. There is so much evidence and medical literature. It’s right there. I was able to pinpoint protocols and create them. Then I watched in my practice people coming back to life sustainably, long-term. Magic was happening.
That’s why everybody was telling me I had to write the book. What book? I had never written the book. I don’t have time. I don’t have a life. Including my husband. So I sat down and wrote the book. I think I’m just the messenger. When the time comes you’re called to do a job, if you don’t say yes, somebody else will be asked.
I think I needed to bridge the gap between the medical medium claims and where the medical community is. There is this vast ocean between them. That’s why I was methodical with medical literature. I wanted to make sure that was the foundation. Then we can add spirituality and stress and emotions and all kinds of things. I started from there. That is the story.
Dr. Eric:
Before you mentioned Medical Medium, I was going to ask you about if someone was choosing between your book and Anthony Williams’ book, what would you say is the difference? Even though it’s great he brought awareness to EBV, they are two completely different books. Yours is more scientific-based.
Dr. Kasia:
I would say that. Another thing is I have most of his books, and I love the recipes, the wisdom. He doesn’t have a nutritional background, so some of the recommendations he makes for detox, people take too extreme without being educated on balancing things. Sometimes they lose too much weight. Sometimes they spiral in all directions. As a clinical nutritionist, I have to coach them in that process, reverse-engineering, and educate them on actually balancing meals or adrenals. What does that mean in the context of the day? That is very important. Of course, he doesn’t provide that because that’s not his background. That’s the missing part.
Every supplement that I recommend is a multi-performer. Very far in research. There are some that are good in research but don’t perform that well. We drop them. We don’t use them. They are fine theoretically, in studies, but they don’t perform in the community. We don’t need them. It’s very fine things, being strategic, also having that clinical nutrition background. Whether they have a virus or not, it’s balanced.
That would be the difference. It’s a good combo. He opened the door and made people realize that what they eat really matters. There is spirituality to food. That is all beautiful.
I think when you write a book for masses, you make blank statements that are black and white. “Everybody has EBV.” “Everybody will be helped with celery juice.” With celery juice, some people love it. Some people hate it. Some people said it’s like a miracle. Some people said it doesn’t work. It’s a mix. Everyone is different. That’s how we are. I think his job on this planet was to get our attention. Honestly, without that book, how would I know? I emailed him and thanked him because that’s how I started. I think we complement each other.
Dr. Eric:
He talks a lot about celery juice. I know he has a book dedicated to celery juice.
Dr. Kasia:
All the celery juice. I know.
Dr. Eric:
He talks about other things diet-wise obviously. We know the importance of food and eating healthy. I’m guessing most people who are drinking celery juice are also making other changes to their diet. It’s hard to pinpoint it to the celery juice since most people aren’t probably drinking celery juice yet going to McDonald’s and other fast-food restaurants. Hopefully they are cleaning up their diet. There may be exceptions, but hopefully they are making other changes. He doesn’t just recommend celery juice.
Dr. Kasia:
It’s all good. I know that certain things he claims may not be researched fully on that yet. I have seen a little bit of research on celery juice. We may catch up with him later, and that’s fine, too. I agree withyou. Some people in our community are doing a program, and they are still juicing celery just because they feel it supports them. They are happy about it and committed. That’s perfectly great.
Dr. Eric:
You mentioned supplements. There are certain supplements you have tested out that don’t work. Do you remember which ones? People aren’t taking those supplements. Maybe I’m recommending those, so I should stop.
Dr. Kasia:
Proteolytic enzymes are one of them. They looked great in some studies. You would have to pop 25-30 capsules a day. We have other tools. That didn’t deliver. Literally there is one or two companies that provide this product.
In my opinion, lauric acid or monolaurin are not worth it. There is a lot of problems with them. They are just not worth it. They create a lot of havoc in the body. They do not provide that multi-tasking support that other things in our protocol do, like selenium. They don’t provide antioxidant support or nutrients that are missing in the diet. They just kill. Our protocol doesn’t tend to kill. It immobilizes the virus and turns it off, which is much safer. When you kill any pathogen, you are creating havoc. People have to detoxify it.
Sometimes the dead DNA is as detrimental as when the pathogen is alive. That is really not worth it. That is why people have die-off effect with headaches and malaise. That is not a healing process. It is a crisis that you don’t need to do. For some people, it doesn’t work. For some people, they just have a die-off effect. I don’t think it’s worth the money.
We only recommend it if you have co-infections because it is effective for H-pylori and fungal infections. If you have combinations, I might consider it, but it wouldn’t be my first choice.
Cat’s claw. Cat’s claw is pretty hard on the liver. It’s a pretty heavy-duty herb. Again, it doesn’t provide antioxidant or nutrient value in the way of things like selenium, NAC, or lysine provide. It will build your collagen. Botanicals don’t do that well. They have some qualities, but I stay away from botanicals. We use them as teas because we have to drink. That’s a win-win. It’s inexpensive and available, and you can pick the tea according to the bonus effects. Maybe you need iron or vitamin C. There are particular teas that can provide additional benefits.
The only herb I use in the primary protocol is licorice. That’s worth it.
Dr. Eric:
Licorice root. That is supposed to have antiviral properties.
Dr. Kasia:
Yes, that’s the big hitter. That’s worth it. You want to be strategic because people are so sick and brain fogged. Every time they open their mouth, we want to cut corners and go fast and strategize on supplements. You can take a lot of supplements and not be successful with EBV for years.
Dr. Eric:
I think it’s important to mention with licorice root, if someone has high blood pressure, they probably don’t want to take it because it can potentially increase blood pressure. Whenever taking in my opinion any type of herb, it might be a good idea to be working with a functional medicine practitioner. Most people don’t. Certain supplements, like nutrients, as long as you are not taking too high of a dose, you’re probably fine.
I know selenium, speaking of, safe dosage, you usually recommend a higher amount compared to most people. Most practitioners recommend 200mcg. You typically recommend 600-800mcg.
Dr. Kasia:
Yes. In the book, I walk people through counterindications. If you are a bigger built person, 800mcg. If you’re tiny, maybe 600mcg. Make sure there is no selenium in other supplements you are taking because you can overdo it. If you start losing hair, for example, having some symptoms, you may be overdoing it. Sometimes people overdo some of these supplements, and they need to pay attention to the doses. Or sometimes they think it’s 500mg per capsule, but it’s 900mg per capsule. Then they start spiraling with some new symptoms. Always pay attention to your dosages. Cross-reference. If I wasn’t working with a functional doctor, I would check with a pharmacist. Pharmacists have quite a lot of knowledge. They can provide counterindications if a person is not sure. Not a medical doctor. They are not trained in nutraceuticals.
Dr. Eric:
All the minerals and vitamins, fatty acids are important. Selenium, you focus on. That is one of the primary nutrients. Everything is important. You don’t want to be deficient in anything. But are there ones you focus on more than others besides selenium?
Dr. Kasia:
Specific to EBV?
Dr. Eric:
Yeah, EBV. There is research on Vitamin D.
Dr. Kasia:
Vitamin D is a given. It’s not even part of your initial protocol because I assume it’s in there. If it’s not, then yeah, Vitamin D3/K2. Licorice, as I mentioned. NAC is very important. Lysine is very important. Zinc is very important. Vitamin C and Vitamin E. That would be the initial protocol is just those seven. That can start shifting and moving the needle if you have potencies that are high enough.
You can’t patch holes in your life with just a bunch of supplements. It’s a bigger picture. You have to address where the bucket is leaking. Eventually you will replace the bucket with a new bucket. Your WiFi is blasting on you, which is not good when you have EBV. There’s your mold blasting at you, which is not good when you have EBV. You have poor diet, and you go to fast food restaurants because you’re in a bind. You have those holes in the bucket.
These supplements are amazing, but if you want to get out of that continual EBV reactivation, you have to build a new house with brick, so to speak, so you are invincible. Once you get to that point, EBV is not a problem. If it starts reactivating, you can know exactly why. You will start to anticipate it because of your circumstances. You will know exactly what to do. Within 24-48 hours, you will turn it off.
That’s exactly what I did in the fall. I reactivated here in this house when we moved. I was able to pinpoint and tested it. I developed vertigo out of the blue. I turned it off within 24-48 hours because I knew why. It was a new house. We had a smart meter. I am waiting for it to be removed. We were unpacking and positioning our desk in the wrong place with all the technology. Then I started going down the stairs and going, “Woooo.” I jumped on the protocol and moved the desk. You become literate in what happens with that virus. We had mold, so that’s another reason. Mold is unkind and will reactivate EBV. That is more of a priority before you tackle EBV: to get rid of the mold.
Dr. Eric:
That’s a good point. You have to address any source dragging down the immune system. I look at it more as an immune system problem than a virus problem. When you can’t get rid of the virus itself, you can improve other areas. Try to stop the replication of the virus. The mold, that’s a big reason you’re moving to Madison, Wisconsin.
Dr. Kasia:
Yes. We had four consecutive homes with mold. Much of it was missed by mold inspectors or started after the mold inspector checked. People don’t take care of buildings. They are cutting corners. It’s all sad. We have a lot of rain here in the Pacific Northwest.
Another thing about the virus—it’s such a teacher—is if you are a good caretaker of your body, spirit, and soul. You are in alignment with who you are. You love what you do. You are of service. You help others. It’s like a symphony with beautiful colors around you. You are living your life the way we came here to live. Most people are not in sync with that. 80% of people in the States hate their job.
Dr. Eric:
I don’t know the stats, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it’s that high.
Dr. Kasia:
I had a job I was not supposed to do for five months, and I was ready for therapy. I had to walk away. It was killing my spirit. I was physically so uncomfortable. I was an assistant at a local government office. It wasn’t for me. But people live this way. There is the physical level. But there is also the emotional/spiritual level. There is emotional pain from losses or betrayals or not being heard.
All this hits women harder. I find that the majority of people with chronic EBV who are really taxed and sick are women. I have seen more men now, too. We have a joke in our community: Welcome to the international, overeager, overachiever, type A personality, anonymous club. These are givers, healers, people with their heart on their sleeve. You are so vulnerable to a lot, and you overgive. You lose your boundaries, and you don’t listen to your voice. Maybe people take advantage of you. It’s taking effect. It’s easy for a virus to reactivate in circumstances like that because you oversleep, you are overworked, you may not be able to say no to your boss about Friday night work. Even building that personal muscle helps.
The virus in that sense is a big teacher. Once you are congruent with who you are, and are aligned, you turn it off. It’s just there in the background. That’s it. We all have it.
Dr. Eric:
A small percentage don’t, but it’s like 90-95%. I wanted to switch gears and talk about blood testing. Most people who see you probably have already done the blood test for EBV either on their own or through another practitioner.
Dr. Kasia:
The notorious test, yes.
Dr. Eric:
I don’t know how much you rely on the blood test. Could you talk about your experience, whether you want to see all the tests? There are four different markers. Either way, I’d like for you to talk about the different markers and which ones you feel are more significant. We did discuss this during the last interview, so I know already.
Dr. Kasia:
It’s never enough. I have talked about it millions of times, but it never gets old. Pretty much everybody asks me about the labs. People email me, DM me on social media, or text me. We have an entire page on our website about it so people can interpret those labs. We even have a link to a 50-minute Facebook Live where we had a white board and colored markers, and I discussed this. It’s the beginning of a journey for people. You can be trapped in a wrong interpretation for years and continue to deteriorate. It’s because of one lab being misinterpreted.
There are four markers available by labs. If you ask a medical doctor, they will order a lab. If you don’t tell them anything, the lab will only include two or three typically, not four. You have to make sure that you ask the doctor to add all four. The most important one is not part of the panel typically. We will talk about that. That is the first step.
People spend 1-2 years going from doctor to doctor asking to be tested. Medical doctors are resistant because they know there is no cure, in their opinion. If you had mono, that’s it, you’re done, you won’t have EBV anymore. In their belief system, they won’t test you because it’s irrelevant. Even if you had it, there is nothing you can do. Plus they misinterpret it. Most of the time, the misinterpretation is negative for EBV, and that’s probably inaccurate.
You asked me if I recommend testing all the time. Not that much. The most important thing is the context. Have people tried different therapies and failed? That’s typical for EBV. Whether they have a history where they had all kinds of different presentations over their lifetime, idiopathic, juvenile arthritis, maybe mono at the university, maybe strength depressions by stress, and then they would spiral. Maybe they have Hashimoto’s or lupus. You look through the story, and you find out there is something causing all of this. The body is not just creating havoc because it has nothing else to do. There is always a reason. I ask people to pay attention to the context.
You can do testing again and again if you know when to test. Test first when you feel the best. Test during the first week where you feel like you have been hit by a truck. That is a typical expression. It’s the worst of the worst. You don’t want to wait. It’s hard to test when you feel so miserable, but that’s when you want to test to see if the markers are showing. If you wait a couple weeks, you will miss the markers. That is a pitfall. Depending on when you test, you can miss the logic of where EBV is in the context. That is a problem. Does that make sense?
Dr. Eric:
Yes. Most panels don’t have that early antigen. If you test when you’re not feeling badly, that might come back negative, but if you are feeling badly, it is more likely to come back positive.
Dr. Kasia:
Yes. There are certain irregularities in people. If you look at statistics, there is a case where a person can have everything negative. Is the lifestyle, history, medical history, complications, and symptoms consistent with EBV? Are they even producing antibodies at this time? In that case, I feel like a medical doctor has a responsibility to test total IGG, total IGM, total IGC to see if those immunoglobulins are even produced. Sometimes that is the reason why things are normal. Then you can recalculate if they are producing, what would it be.
Early antigen. There are three IGGs in the test and one IGM. Medical doctors, because they don’t know, they assume IGM is current infection, and three IGG is past infection, and that’s it. That’s where the first error is. That’s not how it works. IGM is VCA. It looks like it should be current infection. Statistically, empirically, from hundreds of people and tests and presentations, I can tell you it only reactivates and it’s positive from the first infection. Often times, when you reactivate, the VCA-IgM will not show. It will be normal. In a chronically infected person, we expect it to be normal, and that’s where the confusion is. Sometimes it’s elevated constantly with every time you test. This is very weird, but it happens.
Dr. Eric:
I have one patient who no matter what I have done, and she has seen another practitioner, gotten ozone treatment, the IgM keeps on coming back positive, which 99% of the time, it’s negative. The VCA IgG and the nuclear antigen are commonly positive.
Dr. Kasia:
It could be molecular mimicry. It could be co-infections. It could be other things like a tripwire. It’s rare, yeah. What I would say is keep testing. Do stool tests. See what other infections you have. Don’t live by your lab. Live by your symptoms and quality of life. Are you improving? That’s the one VCA IgM.
Then there is VCA IgG and EBNA IgG, those two you mentioned, are the big mamas. They will be elevated for the life of the host. Typically, what we don’t expect is to bring them to normal. If it’s triple digits, then we have a problem. When we say normal range, it’s from 0-19, let’s say. If you have 235, those are in triple digits. It’s multiple times of what it should be. You know it’s affecting your health; this virus has implications in your life.
It’s even worse when your levels say more than the current range. More than 600. More than 750. It could be 2,000. The lab doesn’t give you the number; it’s just above. As you’re getting better, the numbers may be dropping for both of them, but they are still above that range. Maybe it’s 2,000, and now it’s 800. If you have those still beyond the range, but you are feeling you are recovering, I don’t want any of your listeners to get depressed and say it doesn’t work. You may be dropping and dropping. At one point, you may drop into that range. Maybe it will be 480. You want to anticipate and not get depressed. People get depressed about that.
These two will be elevated. If you repeatedly test, you will notice that when you reactivate your early antigen, those two will go higher. When you feel better and don’t have early antigen elevated and feel your symptoms are better, they will start sliding a little bit. They come and go. Some were there.
The last one is early antigen EA IgG. That is the one that pops in during two or three weeks when you reactivate. You want to catch it when you feel the worst. It doesn’t live long. The virus goes in and out. Like I said, mine reactivated because of the combination of WiFi in the corner, mold, and stress. We had to move because of the mold. We moved into a place with mold. And we had mold inspections.
Dr. Eric:
That happens a lot unfortunately.
Dr. Kasia:
Yes. That is the trajectory. You want to have a context. You live in your body, so you know how you feel, and you know where you have been. Paying attention to that gives you empowerment, knowledge, independence. You can do those labs for $150-$200. You get that lab once in a while independently. You get a report. Go to our website or read the book. There is a whole chapter on lab interpretations. You can understand where you are. That’s all you need. You don’t have to beg the doctor and be frustrated that you waited two months to see the doctor, paid all this money, and they missed the marker, so they tell you there is nothing they can do. I don’t want people to waste their energy that they don’t even have because they are sick.
Dr. Eric:
I’ll say it again: Check out her book, not only for the testing, but it does give a lot of information about treatment, supplements, and foods. We won’t get into great detail here because it’s all in the book.
Dr. Kasia:
All 600 pages.
Dr. Eric:
It’s bigger than one of my books. One of mine is over 500 pages.
Dr. Kasia:
I beat you to it.
Dr. Eric:
Final question I want to ask you is the relationship between EBV and thyroid health, whether it’s not autoimmune, but especially autoimmune. There is some evidence in the literature showing the connection with both Graves’ and Hashimoto’s. Have you seen that, too, where it seems like EBV is a trigger or at least a contributing factor?
Dr. Kasia:
Yes, both, all of the above. Most women lean toward hypothyroidism, Hashimoto’s, autoimmune. Not so many with Graves’. But the virus can go either way. We also have specific thyroid tumors. I have seen the tumors removed, and I have seen radiation of the thyroid. Women are still miserable, and this is not addressed. The thyroid is such an issue.
EBV is one of the driving forces triggering Hashimoto’s thyroiditis. Graves’, too, but Hashimoto’s more so. Sometimes if we just focus on the EBV protocol, we can normalize the antibodies for the thyroid and normalize the symptoms. That sustains. Women know what to do if it reactivates. If it starts going down, they jump on the protocol aggressively. Like I said, in my case, I turned it off quickly. You don’t have to be sick or miserable. It is a possibility.
There are other factors like gluten, H-pylori, uricemia. There are other infecting agents. Environmental toxins. Those would be the triggers, I would say. Wouldn’t you agree?
Dr. Eric:
One of the books I wrote is Hashimoto’s triggers. It’s pretty comprehensive. I do talk about viruses, including EBV. I am not anti-iodine, but iodine can be a trigger. Gut infections. H-pylori. There is a case study on blastocystis hominis, which is a parasite. Foods like gluten and dairy. There is more than that.
To focus on Hashimoto’s triggers, you can check out my book. To focus on EBV, get Kasia’s book.Where can people learn more about you, Dr. Kasia?
Dr. Kasia:
We have a whole website. It’s my name, KasiaKines.com. It’s a huge website with all kinds of resources. EBV specific, we created a website called EBVHelp.com. We have symptoms, lab interpretations, consumer direct labs. We have programs. We have a masterclass series now. As we speak, we are going to talk about mold and EBV next week. We have EBV transformational workshops. An EBV challenge. We are trying to create space for everyone on the journey and be of service. We have a complete EBV recovery program for consumers. If people are sick and ready, we got it.
Dr. Eric:
Can you talk a little bit about that? They can get a lot of information from the book. Some people get the book and receive amazing results from the book alone. Why would someone want to join the program? Some people do need the 1:1 support.
Dr. Kasia:
The way we design it, and we have run it many times, and it still seems to be working. The one thing that people struggle with and really appreciate is in the transformational workshop, there is a community of people just like them. They are so isolated and lonely, and they don’t talk to anybody who shares their experience. When you have breakout rooms on Zoom, many times during that particular workshop, to get people connected. It’s an aha moment. Our students in the recovery program have a big Facebook community.
We also have monthly Q&A calls. Sometimes it’s two hours or two and a half hours. We talk and talk and talk, and I answer questions. We used to do it every week, so we have a vast library of those. If people are very sick, they can listen to the audio and get a sense of the virus. That gives people so much empowerment. It’s just a virus. We can zap it. We can turn it around. It’s not this big monster that people are so afraid of.
It’s a self-based online program with tons of support and materials. There are videos and reading and action steps to do. We are going through different areas of life, including spirituality and joy; supplements; and kitchen. A lot of practicality. This has to be practical. We have an initial protocol for supplements right from the start, so people within the first three weeks can start feeling better. They have their focus and less fatigue so they can continue implementing other things.
We added a health coach specializing in my methodology. We are building a team, so they are supported. We created small groups focusing in particular areas in the program with a coach.
They have an opportunity to schedule a 1:1 with me. For our students, I have a robust discount that they can schedule with me and do it as often as they need. Some people have SIBO. Some people have co-infections. My 1:1 practice is closed, but I am a consultant, so I can guide them and review labs.
We have protocols and so much support for SIBO. We have a full protocol for H-pylori that was successful in my clinical practice. There is a module on mold. We talk a lot about that. There is a module on WiFi. There are co-infections, hydrochloric acid, other labs they should test, traveling with EBV. Antibiotics, Vagus nerve, lymphatic systems, what to do with it, what exercises are okay to do or not.
You have access to it as many years as you need. We don’t restrict it. You have access to me as long as you need every month. We have a great community with beautiful people.
Dr. Eric:
You also offer a free discovery call. It sounds like there are a lot of options, not just that program, but some other ones, too.
Dr. Kasia:
Yes. On both websites, you can schedule a clarity session with Rachel, our operational manager, who came to me from that community, or with me. We had to put a price tag on it because we had no-shows when it was free. We do have to hold the place with a fee. It’s up to 30 minutes, and there is homework. The person has an opportunity to write the diagnosis, what they have done, what they haven’t done yet, what they need, where they are, their dreams, their pain, everything. I review it and reframe it and put it in my notes. I spend some time on it. When we talk, I understand where this person is, and I can guide them toward the next right step for them. They can ask questions. I really enjoy that because I get to know people and direct them and possibly invite them to our program. It’s the solution. We have it there.
Dr. Eric:
I forgot to mention earlier that for anyone who joins the program, I have a special code, where you can get 10% off. If you visit the website and are ready to do that, they can do that. They can also read the book first or do the discovery call.
Thanks, Dr. Kines. Appreciate you doing this interview again. It was a pleasure. Looking forward to part three of this in the future as well.
Dr. Kasia:
Part three, part 10, sign me up. Keep doing this wonderful work. It’s so needed.
Dr. Eric:
You, too. Go get her book! The Epstein-Barr Virus Solution.
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