Recently, I interviewed Dr. Evan Hirsch, a fatigue expert who’s helped thousands recover from long COVID and chronic fatigue using his four-step Energy MD Method. In this episode we explore the “toxic five” hidden factors like mold, infections, and nervous system overload that often go unaddressed in standard care. He also explains why common treatments like IV ozone might backfire if your body isn’t ready, and why gentle nervous system retraining can sometimes be the missing piece. If you would prefer to listen to the interview you can access it by Clicking Here [1].
Dr. Eric Osansky:
I am excited to chat with Dr. Evan Hirsch. We are going to be talking about long COVID, tying it into chronic fatigue, of course talking a bit about thyroid health. Let me go and dive into Dr. Evan’s impressive bio here.
Dr. Evan Hirsch also known as the Energy MD, is a world-renowned fatigue expert, best-selling author, and professional speaker. He is the creator of the Energy MD Method, the science-backed and clinically proven four-step process to resolving long COVID and chronic fatigue syndrome naturally.
Through his best-selling book, podcast, and international online program, he has helped thousands of people around the world resolve their fatigue. Dr. Evan has been featured on TV, podcasts, and summits.
When he is not at the office, you can find him singing musicals, dancing hip-hop, learning languages, and traveling with his family. Maybe we will get him to do a little bit of hip-hop during the interview. Welcome, Dr. Evan.
Dr. Evan Hirsch:
Thank you, Dr. Eric. Thanks so much for having me on.
Dr. Eric: I
t’s a pleasure to have a conversation, talking about long COVID and chronic fatigue. You’re an expert when it comes to this.
Let’s start off. Pretty much everybody is familiar with COVID. What is long COVID?
Dr. Evan:
A lot of people don’t realize that sometimes, you can get persistent symptoms after you get a virus. Basically symptoms that don’t go away. If you get a viral illness, it could have been tested positive for COVID or not. The testing isn’t particularly good. If symptoms persisted for longer than a month or two, that can now be diagnosable as long COVID or post-acute sequalae or SARS-COV-2.
The symptoms are disparate. You can have over 250 different symptoms. The most common ones are fatigue, brain fog, body pain, and sleep issues. Those are really the major ones. It really depends on where the infection goes in the body. That will end up determining what it ends up manifesting as.
We do know that since COVID, there is an increase in cancer, autoimmune disease, dementia, Alzheimer’s. There is increase in a number of other illnesses that a lot of people are scratching their heads about, and a lot of people believe are potentially due to spike protein illness, which is the main protein that gets transmitted from the COVID virus.
Dr. Eric:
Before pressing record, we chatted a little bit. I mentioned how in 2020/2021, we had more people with autoimmune thyroid come in. You mentioned how there is an increased prevalence in autoimmunity and cancer since all this started. I haven’t seen the cancer because that’s not what I focus on. I have seen the increase in autoimmune conditions.
As far as the percentage of people who get COVID, approximately how many people will eventually develop long COVID?
Dr. Evan:
According to the CDC, they say 20%. That means one out of every five people, two out of every ten. There are some studies that look at upwards of 30-35%. For people who are hospitalized when they got acute COVID, the numbers are even higher.
What we’re seeing is one in every three people generally is going to get persistent symptoms, whether it’s the loss of smell or taste, or fatigue, or one of these other symptoms that I previously mentioned.
Dr. Eric:
Do you know why some people develop long COVID, and others don’t? I got hit hard with COVID in 2022. I got pneumonia. It was pretty bad for three weeks. I thought maybe my symptoms would persist. Thankfully, they didn’t. Everybody is different, I guess is the answer. Why didn’t I develop long COVID, yet other people might develop it?
Dr. Evan:
Fortunately, your immune system was functioning well, and you had a very strong reaction. The research supports that the weaker the reaction you have, the more mild symptoms you have, the research shows that five mild symptoms give you a greater chance of getting long COVID than what you had, which were really intense symptoms, like the worst flu of your life.
Sometimes, the immune system can get rid of the virus. If it can’t, and a virus comes into the body and sneaks around the immune system, that is when it takes hold, and you get some of those persistent symptoms.
What’s underlying those people who end up getting it, what it looks like is that they have what I call the toxic five, which is a combination of toxins, infections, and nervous system dysfunction that builds up in the body over time. It’s a combination of heavy metals, chemicals, mold, infections, and nervous system dysfunction that you basically get from the moment you come out of the womb.
There is research that shows over 300 different chemicals are found in baby’s blood. Moms are dumping all the good stuff and the not so good stuff into the babies. Then you grow up and have exposure to a number of different chemicals or toxins. Pesticides and herbicides in non-organic food. You get mercury fillings. You live in places that have water damage. Over half of the buildings in the world have water damage, and most of those have mold. You have exposure to people who are smoking. You get cadmium exposure that way.
These toxins build up over time. They disrupt the nervous system and the immune system. All of a sudden, infections can come into the body, and the immune system is often left fueled. The infection can take hold, or it can stimulate other infections to come out. They can be more opportunistic. That’s what the big picture looks like.
Why some people get it, and other people don’t is really based on is the stage set? A lot of people are fine until they get a viral illness or COVID. While that might have been the straw that broke the camel’s back, the stage was already set with the other toxic five, and it just took something really stressful in order to put you over.
Dr. Eric:
Are there some genetics behind it as well? For example, with mold, some people have more of a challenge clearing out mycotoxins from their tissues. We are all exposed to heavy metals and all these other toxins and toxicants. The good news is, it’s not just genetics. I assume that’s at least a piece of the puzzle.
Dr. Evan:
Absolutely. Genetics are always a piece of the puzzle. They’re generally about 10-20% of any diagnosis that somebody has. It is a small part, and it’s not something that I talk a lot about.
I used to go down the genetics rabbit hole. Spent a lot of time, energy, and money working on that. It just didn’t move the needle the way focusing on the toxic five has done for my community of people with long COVID and chronic fatigue.
Dr. Eric:
I’m with you. You can’t change the genetics. You can of course do other things, like adjust the toxic five that helps them modify the expression of the genes. It makes sense that you would focus on those factors.
From what I understand, you don’t do any testing. Just from your experience over the years, you just really assume that everybody has long COVID. We all get exposed to toxins. I guess the nervous system dysregulation, would you say that’s something that everybody with COVID experiences, or is that something that’s more specific to not only long COVID but these other chronic health conditions as well?
Dr. Evan:
Having done this for about a decade, I found that when I do testing about every three months, and I was measuring heavy metals, chemicals, molds, and infections, all of them ended up coming out over the course of 12 months.
Some of this is because of the testing, if you do it initially, urine testing, and you don’t see anything, it doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t have the toxins in your body. The test is a test of excretion. The urine test is showing us how much you’re able to excrete. You may not be able to notice anything at month three. If you repeat it at month six or nine, all of a sudden, you’re opening up these pathways as we go through our process. Toxins are able to flow out of the body. You’re seeing a lot more excretion. That’s one thing I was seeing.
I was fooled initially when I would do a test, and somebody wouldn’t show up with mycotoxins. I’d do a test six months later, and they had a whole bunch of mycotoxins. The question is what was happening here? That’s the first thing. It’s a test of excretion.
The other thing is these toxins are all really bound up to each other. I call it a toxic matrix. The heavy metals, chemicals, molds, and infections are bound. When you start to remove one of those things, like heavy metals, all of a sudden, the rest of them also get released. We want to make sure that as we’re going through this process, all of those are being covered.
What I found after doing this for almost a decade is the most successful cases that I had were people where I was addressing all of the toxic four at the time. I wasn’t doing nervous system retraining a decade ago. As I was removing those things, people were getting better.
Even people where I was like, it definitely seems very suspicious that you have mold, but I am not seeing it in the urine, we will address it anyway. Sure enough, it would come out later, and I was glad we addressed it, so we could save them money, time, and energy.
About a year ago, I decided, you know what? I learned all this information. I am seeing this time and time again. It doesn’t make sense to waste money on testing. I will treat these, and we are having really great success doing that. We are leaving no stone unturned.
That’s the biggest thing when people come to see me. When they finally find me, they have seen a dozen providers. They have been to long COVID clinics at Stanford and Mayo. I tell them, I want to make sure that we will be as successful as possible, and we will leave no stone unturned. We will address all of the potential causes you have. It won’t cost you more money. It will save you time, money, and energy. You won’t have to spend money on lab testing. I found that to be incredibly helpful.
A couple years ago, I learned more about nervous system retraining. I saw people get better faster when they did nervous system retraining, whether it was mindset work in combination with breath work and humming and gargling and all of these other different components that put the body into the parasympathetic and allow it to heal.
About six months ago, we created our own nervous system program. It’s a practice schedule, where it gives you an outline of what you should be doing during your day. It’s not as in-depth as the Gupta Program or Primal Trust or DNRS or other ones. It’s basic and allows people to step into it. They can step into a more advanced version that we have. They can go into some of these other programs if they want something more in depth. It allows people to get their feet in the door and start working on all of the toxic five without having to learn a separate program.
I’m always looking and tweaking the program to see how to get people better faster and for less expense. I’m constantly narrowing it down to what are the most important things that we address?
I think I answered both of those questions: why I don’t test so much anymore. There are a couple things I test for, like thyroid, B12, Vitamin D sometimes. Also, the nervous system retraining and how that is such a big component now of the work that we do.
There is a quote. I am going to butcher it. The idea is you can’t solve a problem with the same thinking that got you into the problem. I think Einstein said, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.” It’s this idea that we have to change more than just the physical. We have to change how we’re thinking, our emotions, and consequently, that means working on our nervous system.
Dr. Eric:
Yeah, that makes sense. It sounds like you had a lot of success when it was the toxic four. Incorporating that nervous system retraining that led to the toxic five just made it even more effective.
Dr. Evan:
Absolutely.
Dr. Eric:
Wonderful. There are other causes of chronic fatigue, right? How can one differentiate whether it’s long COVID or if there is another cause of chronic fatigue? Does it not really matter as long as you address the toxic five?
Dr. Evan:
It’s more of the latter, where it doesn’t really matter. In terms of figuring out if somebody has long COVID, if they have any of the symptoms that I mentioned—chronic fatigue, brain fog, body pain, sleep issues, or any other weird symptom, neuropathy, numbness and tingling, loss of smell and taste—since 2020, and potentially after a viral illness, whether they tested positive for COVID or not, they have to consider it.
Before long COVID, there was CFS (chronic fatigue syndrome). A large percentage of people ended up having a viral illness that triggered that as well. Whether it was EBV or HHV6 or cytomegalovirus, these are all different viruses that can create a mononucleosis type of picture, where you’re tired all the time.
The process that we go through is pretty much the same. Getting rid of the toxic five, getting rid of micro clots and hypercoagulation, decreasing EMFs, supporting deficiencies, and working on lifestyle habits and then the nervous system retraining. All of those will be important to do whether or not somebody has long COVID or whether or not they have CFS.
By definition, if you have the fatigue with post-exertional malaise, which basically means you exert yourself and feel worse, if you have the body pain, brain fog, sleep issues, and you have had it for longer than six months, that’s diagnostic for CFS or encephalomyelitis, which is what they call it across the pond in Europe and beyond. They’re the same thing.
Essentially, long COVID is CFS, but the trigger is the spike protein. It does change a little bit about what we do with the protocol, but it’s really not much.
Dr. Eric:
You mentioned the herpes family of viruses before. EBV, HHV6. Once you have those, from what I understand, you’re pretty much living in harmony with them. Is it similar with long COVID? Is it something where you are trying to get rid of it completely, or you are just trying to live in harmony with it?
Dr. Evan:
Great question for any of these infections we are looking at. In general, in this form as humans, we’re 90% bug cell and 10% human cells. It really is this compliment and relationship that we have that has been disrupted.
When you have the heavy metals, the chemicals, the molds, the nervous system dysfunction, all of those things are going to hijack the immune system and allow infections to become opportunistic. You have antibiotics, and it disrupts your flora. All of a sudden, you have a bunch of fungus, or you have mold exposure.
When it comes to infections, we are talking about viruses, bacteria, yeast, spirochetes, Lyme, and also parasites. All of those end up contributing to the CFS, and we really want to recreate the balance. We are trying to get rid of them as much as possible.
100% getting rid of them isn’t really necessary. It’s more about when people get their energy back, and they get 8, 9, 10/10 energy, they don’t really care whether or not there is still some infection left. It’s more about creating that balance. That is always the goal. Oftentimes, it’s more about getting the immune system back online, so it can bring those infections back into balance. That comes from addressing the heavy metals, chemicals, molds, and nervous system dysfunction.
That is always very interesting. I get so many people who come to see me who have done different spike protein protocols, FLCCC. A lot of those people can get better. Oftentimes, if they are not getting better from going directly at the spike protein, it’s because they have all these other causes that need to be addressed in order for them to free up the immune system to bring everything back into balance.
Dr. Eric:
I was diagnosed with chronic Lyme, bartonella, and pretty sure you were, too. In 2018, when I got tested, I was symptomatic. I wasn’t really symptomatic. It wasn’t debilitating fatigue or severe pain, but I had more neurological symptoms, enough where I did things to address the Lyme and bartonella. Then I retested six months later. There was no change, but I felt great. It was one of those things where do I really want to keep retesting it?
Again, I’ve had Lyme experts on, and they say, since it’s intracellular, you won’t get rid of Lyme and bartonella. Like you said, you want to reduce your infection burden as much as you can, but you will still always have microbes. As long as you’re doing things to optimize your immune system, it sounds like you agree. I don’t know if you ever retested yourself also when it comes to Lyme and bartonella.
Dr. Evan:
No. My story was very similar. I had CFS for five years. It just about destroyed my life and relationships and business. I finally had to go on a journey after napping underneath my desk for thousands of days of figuring out what the causes were and then addressing them myself. I wrote a book about it. Now it has become my mission in life.
I absolutely agree. I talk quite a bit about how testing is highly imperfect. If you are looking at the test looking at the immune system’s reaction to something, this is the IgG or IgM blood test, probably what you got. That test is dependent on an intact immune system. If you have heavy metals, chemicals, mold, other infections, nervous system dysfunction, your immune system won’t be functional or accurate. Consequently, you are asking a dysfunctional immune system to give you an accurate read on a blood test. It just won’t happen. You won’t get good data.
When we’re looking at other testing in terms of the urine tests for heavy metals, chemicals, and molds, like I mentioned before, those are tests of excretion. The more toxins you have in your body, the more clogged those detox pathways are and the less you can excrete. Consequently, when you are excreting, that is a better sign. That is not really a test of your total body; it’s a test of excretion.
The last thing I’ll say on this is sometimes people will say, “What about PCR testing?” It’s a DNA test looking at the DNA of an infection. If you are looking in the urine, if the infection does not live in the urinary tract, you won’t see it. If you are looking at it in the blood, and it doesn’t live in the blood, you won’t see it.
Oftentimes, these are intracellular. They are in the muscles. If you want to see if bartonella is causing your muscle pain or fibromyalgia or planar fasciitis or Morton’s neuroma or your calf pain or calf muscle cramps, you’d have to do a biopsy of your muscle, which is incredibly painful, and nobody will do that for you. If you’re not looking in the right place, the testing will be imperfect, which is one of those reasons why I will hedge my bets. I will address all of these things and make sure we leave no stone unturned.
Dr. Eric:
It’s important to have this conversation because in the case of Lyme, a lot of people do Lyme testing. They will do a western block for example, and it comes back negative. Then their doctor says, “You don’t have Lyme.” It could be a false negative.
There are other strains of Lyme, not just Borrelia burgdorferi. Bartonella often gets overlooked. When you go to regular doctors, if they are willing to test for Lyme, usually they are not bringing up bartonella, babesia, all these other coinfections.
Even the stool testing, which I admit, I still do some stool testing on patients. You mentioned the GI Map, which is a DNA-based test. Even that is not perfect. A lot of people show negative for parasites. Maybe many of those people don’t have parasites, but it’s safe to say that some people who have parasites will have false negatives on any stool test, not just the GI Map.
Dr. Evan:
Agreed. We now know parasites can digest themselves outside the body. I have had people come into my office when I had a brick and mortar. “Look at this parasite I found in my stool.” It sure looks like a parasite. We send it off to the lab, and the lab says, “Why did you send me an empty container?” We did that probably about a dozen times before we decided not to do that because they will just give us this report. I never realized that until I heard somebody speak about it, and they said they can digest themselves. I thought that was fascinating.
One thing I do want to touch on also is people may think it’s irresponsible to address all these things at the same time. They may think I am using antibiotics. Everything I do now is natural. I’m 100% online. It’s all herbal. When we are using these herbs, we are doing double, triple, and quadruple duty. I am able to use a couple of herbs that end up addressing all of those different infections. It’s not like we’re going after things with antibiotics, where it will have a lot of negative side effects.
Dr. Eric:
That’s great. I’m the same way. I don’t have prescribing rights. Since you’re acting more as a health coach, you’re a medical doctor, but the way you practice, you’re also relying on the herbs. The herbs are very powerful and can be very effective. They don’t have the same side effects more importantly as the antibiotics. That’s great that you’re taking more of a natural approach when it comes to these infections.
I know you do more than herbs because you do nervous system retraining. There are also things like ozone therapy, IV ozone, and hyperbaric oxygen, when it comes to infections. Frequency therapy. Do you incorporate any of those? Is it really just you focus on what you do, and you have had a lot of success in what you do, so you stick with your treatment options?
Dr. Evan:
It’s the latter. I am always looking at other things we can implement. With ozone therapy, I used to do that when I had my brick and mortar. We did MAH chemotherapy. You take the blood out of the person, mix it with ozone, and put it back in.
Ozone is definitely a big antimicrobial. It’s prooxidant. It can kill a lot of infections. It can boost mitochondria by 400%. What I saw, and I see that with ozone therapy and not so much hyperbaric oxygen but IV Vitamin C, some other natural antimicrobials that are IV. They are indiscriminate. They are killing a lot. They cause a ton of dieoff. It makes the person worse and sometimes for months. It’s really hard for them to recover.
When I saw that in my brick and mortar, I immediately got rid of that therapy because it was more than I was willing to handle when I saw some people start to have mental health issues from killing off some of these infections like Babesia and bartonella that can cause anxiety and depression. You kill them and end up having die-off, which can cause some of those symptoms.
In terms of managing die-off, a Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction, which happens when you kill some of these infections, the body likes small changes. We use tinctures. When someone feels worse, we are able to navigate, pivot, give them more die-off support. Then they can continue to move forward. It’s so much more graceful than utilizing a sledgehammer like an IV.
That’s some of my concerns. I just saw someone recently who had done EBOO therapy, which is a combination of sauna and ozone therapy and something else. It was just very intense. It set her back months. For some people, these therapies can be good, and for some, not so much.
With hyperbaric, I find that the oxygen is not enough to kill infections. If it is going to kill something, it’s a small layer that is usually not that significant for folks. It can boost mitochondrial function. You can also get just as much support when taking the right mitochondrial supplement. That’s ozone and hyperbaric and IV Vitamin C.
In terms of frequency therapy, I do like the idea of this. I have had a couple of people use it peripherally. I am familiar with some of the practices and practitioners. I just haven’t seen a lot of success with it.
Some of it also comes from being focused on one thing. Like I mentioned before, you cannot get rid of infections if you have heavy metals, chemicals, mold, and nervous system dysfunction. You just can’t. If you are doing frequency therapy for a particular infection like Lyme, and you haven’t addressed all these other things, you aren’t going to be successful.
It’s possible the frequency therapy could be successful if you have addressed these other things as well. Or if the frequency therapy can address these things, it addresses them in the right order, then it potentially can work. But I don’t know enough about it.
Dr. Eric:
Wouldn’t that also be the case with IV ozone and hyperbaric oxygen? You would still want to address the toxins and toxicants first?
Dr. Evan:
Yeah. Whenever people come to see me, or we are on the free call to see if we are a good fit to work together, I am always looking for what’s missing. I have never met anyone who have addressed all of their toxic five completely and hasn’t gotten better. They are always missing something. Ozone therapy is not going to address your heavy metals, chemicals, or molds. That is something people have to keep in mind.
Dr. Eric:
What approach do you take when someone is sensitive to supplements? If someone has MCAS for example, and they are really sensitive, do you microdose? Do you do the nervous system retraining initially?
Dr. Evan:
That’s exactly right. Oftentimes, I am at the point where people come to talk to me, and if they are really sensitive to supplements, I say if they haven’t done a nervous system retraining program yet, do a nervous system retraining program for six months, and come back. If you are not all the way better, we can get rid of the causes that you have.
The nervous system retraining really is the absolute best thing for MCAS. I have seen it work so many different times. I have been amazed by it time and time again. There is something that clicks when people are committed. They are doing the nervous system retraining in earnest. Potentially other things that are moving them toward the parasympathetic.
What we do for folks who are more sensitive, or if they can’t get all the way with nervous system retraining and are still sensitive, I often like to use things that will bypass the gut. 80% of our immune system is in the gut. Anything that you put down there, whether it’s food or supplements, people can react to who has MCAS or are more sensitive.
I really like the tinctures for this. We are doing drops on the hands. They can rub them in. You are getting about 20% of a dose, which is really perfect for someone who is more sensitive. Oftentimes, we are also pivoting away. We have a four-step process that we take people through.
Step two is replacing deficiencies, vitamins and minerals and lifestyle habits. Step three is opening up drainage pathways. Step four is removing the toxic five. Often, we will skip step two and go directly to step three to try to open up these pathways in order to be able to get them to remove. You just have to remove a layer of toxin for folks in order for them to decrease their sensitivities.
Often, people who are more sensitive can only eat a couple of foods. When you start to remove the toxins, all of a sudden, the immune system is less reactive, and they can open up their palate and start consuming more foods, taking more supplements, etc.
The nervous system retraining is the biggest bang for the buck. They are not expensive. It’s really great for folks who are more sensitive.
Dr. Eric:
Can you spend a little bit on opening the pathways? You mean like supporting lymphatics? Can you talk more about that?
Dr. Evan:
When we look at all the ways we get toxins out of the body, we are looking at what I call the exit pathways or drainage pathways. People sometimes call them detox pathways. We are looking at the liver, a couple of phases in the liver; the kidney; the lymph, which is the garbage system of the body; the lymphatic system or the neurolymph, which is the garbage system of the brain; gallbladder; biliary tree; and the intestines.
All of these pathways have to be open in order for you to get toxins out. Just by opening them, oftentimes, you can start to release some of the toxins. If you remember what I said previously, I was talking about how the more toxic you are, the more clogged these pathways are. Often, that is when you’re not showing up with excreting things in the urine. You really have to open up these pathways in order to be able to then be successful at removing the toxic five out of your body.
Generally, when I give people an image of this, I talk about a funnel, where essentially, the bottom of this funnel is the drainage pathways, or these exit pathways. If you are dumping toxins, you’re pulling heavy metals out of the tissues, you’re putting them into the lymph system, if it’s clogged, it will go right back into a different compartment. We do want to make sure that bottom of the funnel is patent, opened, so you can get the toxins out.
In step three, we are opening them up a little bit, just to prep the body. There is this pivot that ends up happening, when you’re in step four. Everybody detoxes at a different rate. We want to find the rate at which a particular individual detoxes. We want to detox at a rate that they can tolerate.
We wanted this to be more of a drip system than blood. We can pivot back and forth between step three and step four, so we can keep opening up these exit pathways, so there is more of a flow. Ideally, there is a nice flow that’s working its way through if you fill up those pathways. You end up feeling worse. You end up having die-off. You have to stop. You have to decrease your dose a little bit. Pivot to step three. Increase die-off support. Pivot back to step four. Keep moving forward.
I tell people this is really a process of three steps forward, one step back, where you just have to recognize that so much of this process is pivoting. That’s one way that we personalize this whole process for people.
Dr. Eric:
Awesome. I definitely want to talk about your four-step Energy MD Method. Before that, when you were talking about long COVID, you mentioned helping people with micro clots. Do you use things like proteolytic enzymes like Nattokinase? Is it more advanced as far as breaking up microclots?
Dr. Evan:
That’s definitely what we’re using. Nattokinase and Serrapeptase and Bromelain, depending on the person and where they are in the world, we can get them different products.
The microclots, for those who don’t understand, we used to call this hypercoagulation before COVID came around. It’s essentially the fact that having the toxic five, especially infections, ends up increasing the clotting in the body. It decreases the flow of oxygen to the tissues. You’re also decreasing the flow of the waste products out of the tissues. When you have these microclots, you end up with a lot of symptoms, depending on where the clotting is happening.
I like to listen to sports commentary before I go to bed. It changes my brain. I was listening recently. There was a basketball player who was just coming back from having some clots in their legs. I was curious whether or not the spike protein or if there was something that triggered it besides a more conventional standpoint.
With the microclots, we want to decrease the amount of clotting. We also want to digest the clots. In that one, increasing the blood flow and the oxygenation to the tissues.
There are some therapies. There is one that called apheresis, which is mainly being done in Europe, where it’s kind of like dialysis. They are pulling the blood out of the human, running it through a filter, getting all the clots, and putting the blood back in. People are reporting significant improvement. Doesn’t seem like it’s lasting. They are noticing significant improvement when they go through that process initially. A lot of that has to do with getting rid of the microclots from the body.
Dr. Eric:
Very interesting. Let’s talk about that four-step energy MD Method to help with CFS and long COVID.
Dr. Evan:
The first step is figuring out what is causing an individual to have this. With someone who has long COVID or CFS, we are always going to be addressing the toxic five. We will be addressing microclots and hypercoagulation. We will address adrenals and mitochondrial function. I am not always sure whether or not we will address thyroid or sex hormones or B12 deficiency or different lifestyle habits, depending on the individual. This is the first way that we personalize our program.
We create a personalized program for people based on the causes that they have. There is over 30 we are looking at.
When we are looking at deficiencies, these are things not in our body that are supposed to be, and toxicities, things in the body that aren’t supposed to be. A lot of people spend a lot of time, energy, and money working on the deficiencies. They optimize their hormones, adrenals, mitochondria, vitamins, minerals, lifestyle habits. They have done a great job of that. But then they plateau and are still not feeling optimal. That is because these deficiencies are caused by the toxic five.
In step two, we start by replacing deficiencies. We do want to optimize them because it does make the person more resilient. It decreases inflammation. It recreates their circadian rhythm, so their sleep is better. It gives them a little bit of an uptick in energy in about 50% of people we see.
The magic really happens in step three and four. That’s what this process is all about. It’s preparing the body for removing the toxic five. You can do nervous system retraining while you’re doing this. It’s the other toxic four that we’re talking about.
We are replacing the deficiencies in step two. Part of that is when we start to remove the toxins in step four, it can be stressful on the body. Having the adrenals and mitochondria and thyroid, etc. optimized, that ends up allowing you to deal better with stress and function better as you’re going through the process.
Step three is opening up the drainage pathways that we talked about: liver, kidney, lymph, etc.
Step four is removing the toxic five. I really like to do it in the order of heavy metals, chemicals, mold, because of what we talked about previously, where you really can’t get rid of the infections if you’re still having heavy metals, chemicals, and mold present .
That’s the four-step process that we take people through. The two major tests that I require people to get as part of the program are a test to determine whether or not they are living in mold. If they are living in mold, it’s very hard to get better.
The other one is whether or not they have any hidden infections in their mouth. It’s very hard to get people better if they do. That generally comes from any sort of tooth extraction, whether it’s a wisdom tooth or otherwise. It can be a root canal. Any sort of history of having an abscess in the mouth. Those are the main potential causes that would indicate that people have hidden infections in the mouth. Then they are just leeching that inflammation and toxin and infection. It’s just dripping into the rest of the body, causing inflammation. It doesn’t allow you to get better.
I gave you more than what you asked for, but I talked about the four-step process. I wanted to talk about those two major tests I think are most important.
Dr. Eric:
With the infections, do you recommend for them to get a cone beam?
Dr. Evan:
Yes, the dental test will be the cone beam CT. You do want to make sure it’s done by a biologic dentist, and it’s read correctly by someone who knows how to read these tests.
The testing for the mold, I prefer the EMMA Test by Real Time Laboratories. It’s an environmental mold and mold assay. It’s a combination of looking at mold spores as well as mycotoxins. Really important to make sure you are looking at both of those. Sometimes, mycotoxins aren’t present, but mold spores are.
Dr. Eric:
You’re not talking about urinary mycotoxins. You are looking at testing the home for mold spores and mycotoxins.
Dr. Evan:
Correct. Testing the home. You are cleaning different places in the house, getting a dust sample about the size of a cotton ball.
Dr. Eric:
I’m familiar with Real Time Labs. I know they have urinary mycotoxin testing. I didn’t know they tested the home. Is that an ERMI type test?
Dr. Evan:
The ERMI is the mycotoxin side of things. It’s called an EMMA. For those interested, they can go to EnergyMethodMD.com/EMMA. It will take them to our online store, and they can order it. It’s about $350. Definitely worth it. All tests are imperfect, as I mentioned, including any sort of mold testing of the house. This is the best one I’ve found.
Dr. Eric:
All right. Before we wrap things up, anything else that I should have asked you that I didn’t ask you? Anything else you’d like to discuss? If not, how do people know if you can help them with their long COVID and/or CFS?
Dr. Evan:
One thing that we didn’t talk a lot about with nervous system dysfunction is it’s essentially caused by any sort of stressor that you’ve had in your life, whether mental, emotional, or physical. We have been talking about the other toxic four (heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections). Those are all physical.
The mental and emotional ones are traumas, whether it’s big T trauma, like having some sort of significant abuse, or little T trauma, or more mild, like I had.
My parents were loving and this and that, but I still was trying to navigate getting my needs met from these imperfect adults. Then I had siblings who were also imperfect and trying to get their needs met. Then I was at school, and I was rejected by peer groups, from these kids who are all trying to get their needs met. Then I had relationships and breakups and college and medical school and residency and all these mental and emotional stressors that eventually led in part to the toxins that I ended up accumulating in my body. This ended up causing my CFS.
It’s always important to note that anything that changes the way that you look at the world- If you start to see the world as a more negative place, when you go through that transformation, you’re happy-go-lucky as a kid. That shift ends up happening. Often, that can be part of the reason why people end up with CFS or long COVID. I would say that’s part of it.
Another component of that is the mindset work. We have a four-step mindset practice that is really important. Focus on gratitude and envisioning your ideal day. Asking yourself empowering questions. Looking at negative beliefs that you have and flipping them into empowering beliefs. That all goes along with the nervous system retraining.
The way I know I can help people is I get on these free calls with people after they watch my master class. This is all on my website. I am always looking for how you address the toxic five. If you haven’t. You also have the characteristics that we are looking for success. That is when I feel like we are a good fit to work together. I tell people that’s the case.
About a third of the people I get on a call with, I tell them I think we’re not a good fit to work together for one reason or another. I try to be really honest with people. I only want people joining my program who are going to be successful.
If people are interested, the best place to find me is at EnergyMDMethod.com. On there, you will be able to learn all about the work we can do. You can watch my latest master class; it’s 40 minutes if you watch it on normal speed. 20 minutes if you watch it on double speed. You can get on a free call with me and see if we are a good fit to work together.
Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.
Dr. Eric:
Also, your podcast. Make sure they check that out. Your book, Fix Your Fatigue. Can they find you on social media as well?
Dr. Evan:
I am on all of those places. It depends on where they are in the process of learning and educating. If they want to get to the goal fastest, it’s getting on a call with me and seeing if we are a good fit to work together.
Dr. Eric:
Awesome. This was a wonderful conversation, Dr. Evan. You shared so much valuable information. I learned some things, and I’m sure my listeners did as well.
Dr. Evan:
Thanks for having me on, Eric.