Dr. Eric Osansky:
I am super excited to chat with Michael Rubino. We will talk about mold, mold remediation. It’s going to be an awesome conversation. Let’s go ahead and dive into Michael’s bio here.
Michael Rubino has become the renowned leader in the indoor air quality mold and remediation space. As the founder of HomeCleanse and chair of the Change the Air Foundation, Michael continues to push the conversation forward for creating better indoor air quality. He has been featured on dozens of podcasts and news channels as the leading expert on all aspects of mold, remediation, and air quality. He is also a counsel certified mold remediator by IICRC and ACAC and a contributing member, sponsor, and speaker for the Indoor Air Quality Association. Welcome, Michael.
MichaelRubino:
Thank you so much for having me. It’s really funny to hear about yourself in the third person, I have to say that.
Dr. Eric:
You have some impressive credentials. We will get into your background also. I mentioned how I listened to some of your past episodes. I always do that to try to prepare better for an interview. You’re very popular. You’ve helped service numerous celebrities dealing with mold. Gwyneth Paltrow is one of the more famous names. You’ve definitely spread the word, it sounds like.
Michael:
Definitely. I have been gracious enough to be working in this a long time. Being able to pride myself on doing good work. Really being health-focused is such an important thing in this industry. You do enough good jobs, and you tend to get more attention. Of course, obviously the goal is to help people, so it’s been a fun journey.
Dr. Eric:
Let’s talk about that journey. How did it all start? How did you get to where you are right now?
Michael:
My dad has been a restoration contractor since I was five years old, so it’s been in my family lineage. I have been around construction my entire life. You’ll find photographs of me as a kid on job sites, crawling around, messing around, sweeping things up with a broom, carrying in dry wall in and out of places. I have been around the act of construction inside of homes for a long time.
It was really when Hurricane Sandy hit the Northeast in 2012. I was working for my dad’s company at the time. We’re going to a lot of homes where people were complaining of illness. I was in my early to mid-20s at the time.
You didn’t hear a lot about homes making people sick. Even being around the industry my entire life, it’s not really something that came up. When you heard about water damage or mold, it was more of an unsightly thing or a smelly thing. It can produce NVOCs that produce an odor. You were typically called in to deal with it from a visual or odor perspective.
When I started to see a pattern of people getting sick, that’s when I realized, holy cow, I think there is more than what meets the eye here. As I started to dive down the rabbit holes of trying to understand how this affects people from a scientific perspective, from a medical perspective, and what is the industry missing in terms of not connecting the dots here, where people are put in this position to get sick. That’s when I started to see we have an entire industry of people who really do this more from a cosmetic perspective and don’t understand the science behind what they’re doing.
Truth be told, that led to me understanding and developing a process that is still in use today of eradicating these sources from homes and cleaning up the byproducts, which keep things in suspension for people. The simplicity of it is we breathe 20,000 breaths per day. What we’re breathing matters profoundly. If we’re not paying attention to what we’re breathing, we’re typically the adverse effect of it, which has some health consequences.
Dr. Eric:
Agreed. Would you say mold is more of an issue these days, or is it just more well-known? Now you hear all different practitioners talking about mold. People want to have consultations. A lot of people are already aware of mold, learning it from practitioners and videos. Or is it a combination of both? Is it more of an issue and also more well-known?
Michael:
Both. It’s more of an issue, and it’s more well-known. Unfortunately, there are some bad things that come with that. Let me break down why I think it’s both first.
1970s, Richard Nixon is president. We had this global energy crisis. We started to go in this direction of energy efficiency. We never stopped. We build homes tighter today than ever before. It’s not something that people don’t really know. I think people do. They’re just starting to become aware of the effects of what it is like building these super tight homes and being an occupant inside one of them.
The point of the matter is when water comes in, which it will. No structure is going to last forever and not have water damage at some point. As water comes in, the tighter we build these homes, the more we might not be aware there is a problem. The more that problem is impacting each breath we take 20,000 times per day. You have that aspect.
Coupled with the other side effect of having these super tight homes. Human beings are walking compost centers. We are creating bacteria. We are putting bacteria in the environment. We are exposing ourselves to viruses. We have viruses in us. We are putting viruses out into the environment. We have chemicals that we use inside of our homes. Those get put out into the environment. The building products themselves off gas. The paints and adhesives go into our environment. The VOCs from furniture and clothing we bring into our environment. The microplastics. You get the idea. There is a lot of things that get produced into the environment.
When we have these super tight homes, the amount of particles that we’re breathing into our bodies with every breath that we take is exponentially higher than the leaky homes that we used to have with the balloon frame structure that we had. Unfortunately, the time has not been on our side in terms of the direction that we have been heading in construction. That is problem #1.
Problem #2 is we have largely been ignoring mold as a problem for a very long time. It is cyclical, just like anything else in the world. Right now, we are obviously under the cycle of mold is an issue. We are aware of it. We are taking steps toward that. There are still some issues in terms of how we are dealing with it.
To understand, for the past 20-30 years, we have been in this cycle where mold is no big deal. Just throw some bleach on it. By the way, bleach is not effective to get rid of mold. We also say mold is not that big a deal, so we’ll paint over it. If you ask your parents or grandparents, “How many times did you use bleach for mold? How many times did you paint over it?” you will probably hear, “Of course, we did that. That’s what we were told to do. It’s no big deal.” That has a compounding effect on the indoor air quality in homes and buildings across this country. We have to look at it from that perspective.
All the problems that were incorrectly remediated because we used bleach or incorrectly painted over it or incorrectly remediated because we had floods or hurricanes and water damage situations, and theremediation company themselves did it cosmetically and didn’t understand what they were doing scientifically.
I want you to think about that compounding issue for a second. It’s vast. That’s why you look at the largest home survey ever done in 1994, which is pretty old compared to we are in 2026 now. 50% of the homes had a history of water damage in a survey of 1,000 homes. That’s incredible. That means if you look around at the houses in your neighborhood, every other home probably has a history of water damage. That’s not good.
We compound that with the homes getting tighter and tighter. This does mean retrofit homes, too. How many homes have been built in the ‘70s or ‘80s but have been retrofitted with all this spray foam for energy efficiency? Quite a few. Spray foam can be its own topic and conversation. Feel free to ask me questions about it. I’m just talking about air ceiling and getting rid of ventilation and the effects of that currently.
When we look at all of that, and then we realize that people are now more aware of mold, and they’re talking about it more and more, that’s really good. I appreciate the awareness.
There is also this perspective of confusion. People are more confused than ever before. I have seen that quite a bit in the way in which people are communicating about the problem. People come to the table looking for solutions that might not be the right solution, based upon some things they saw in a chat room.
We have a gift and a curse. More awareness. We have also more confusion. I think the path forward is yes, we know that mold is a problem. Yes, we want to reduce our exposure to mold. Yes, we want to rethink how we want to deal with energy efficiency in a way that doesn’t impact the customer inside the home, breathing that air. Yes, we also need to figure out how to deal withit responsibly and ethically, so we are breathing the best possible air we can breathe in a way that makes sense. That’s where we are today.
Dr. Eric:
It sounds like if a house or an apartment has been around for quite a while, there is a good chance it has mold. How about for those who think their house is fairly new, so there is maybe a really good chance that there is no mold. I don’t know if you know the incidence of mold in new construction, percentagewise. If you had to take a guess, if you don’t know that number, what would you say?
Michael:
It’s pretty high. First, a lot of homes are built with yellow pine. Yellow pine tends to grow mold fairly well based upon everything I have seen so far. This is just being boots on the ground, going into these homes. I was building anew construction home myself that had a ton of mold in it unfortunately. A whole lawsuit with the builder, and I had to get out of the contract and find a new place. That’s how bad it was.
I thinkthat goes to show you that unfortunately, mold can be a problem in new construction just as much as it can be a problem in an older home. We have to understand just because it’s new doesn’t mean that we’re not dealing with the same issue.
Why would there be mold in new construction homes? I’ll tell you why. It’s very simple. The vapor barrier wasn’t done properly. There were gaps, tears, protrusions into the vapor barrier, allowing moisture to get into the slab. I see this problem a lot in new construction homes. They’re not inspecting vapor barriers. When you look at building codes, they are inspecting there is one. They are not inspecting and making sure the vapor barrier is well done. That’s what it is. It’s important for you to know that because you need to be the one inspecting the vapor barrier when you’re building a new home to protect your investment.
The second thing is lumber. When we build houses with lumber, we have to understand lumber is semiporous. Lumber will absorb moisture. It will rain, so it will absorb moisture. We don’t need to be afraid of the rain. We just need to know it will rain and deal with that appropriately.
If we put soggy, wet pieces of wood in the soil, I’ll tell you what will happen. The mold and bacteria that live in the soil are going to transfer onto the lumber. There will be enough moisture content for it to do so.
And you can have Chaetomium or Stachybotrys growing on that lumber. It doesn’t necessarily just have to be a humidity mold like Aspergillus, Penicillium, Cladosporium, etc. That is because mold is already part of our ecosystem. It is in our environment outdoors. If there is enough water, mold will grow on it. We have identified that we should not keep wet lumber in the soil. Let’s elevate it out of the soil.
As I say this to you, you’re thinking, I have been driving around and seen houses built in my neighborhood. Guess what? The lumber is sitting in the soil. You’re right. That is a big problem. There is a Structural Building ComponentsAssociation guide that tells builders don’t do that. Does that mean every builder is following that guide? No. Matter of fact, I promise you more people are not following that guide than are following that guide. That is an issue.
If you know that and keep the lumber out of the soil, even when it gets wet, you will minimize the amount of mold growing on that lumber.
Here’s another thing. There is a term in buildings called “dried in.” This means that lumber is erective. The waterproofing on the exterior is done. Even if the roof is not done, as long as the waterproofing membrane on the roof is done, a house could be technically dried in.
There is an aspect of “dried in” that is a very important step. It’s physically drying. If we don’t physically dry the lumber, then it’s not really dried in. You have all these people using these terms, but they are not following all the steps that the term is supposed to cover.
What I mean by that is after the house is built, and it’s erected, and you have the waterproofing on, you are supposed to go around and make sure the wood is not saturated before you bring in insulation and drywall. Pretty simple.
There is a standard to which the wood should dry. I believe it’s below 12-14%, somewhere in that range. You should get the moisture content lower than that. That would be safe to bring in insulation and drywall. You bring that in, and then obviously our HVAC, insulation, drywall, the permeable materials that could get moisture transferred into and grow mold, those are the things you don’t want to bring in until the space is dried in.
Ask me how many times people skip that step. Too many times. You end up getting too much moisture transference from the wood into the insulation and drywall. Now the moisture gets trapped, and mold starts to grow. This has been another big problem in the new construction building practice that is completely avoidable.If you just take the right precautions, you won’t have mold in new construction. Unfortunately, a lot of the right precautions aren’t being taken.
Dr. Eric:
If people took the right precautions, then it would be greatly reduced. Because most don’t, it’s pretty widespread in new construction as well. When someone purchases a home, they also have an inspector, but that inspector might look for mold. There is a difference between a regular home inspector and someone who focuses on mold, like a mold inspector?
Michael:
Yeah. Great point. Somebody just sent me an inspection report yesterday. Aclient of mine, they’re buying a new home. “Take a look at this, and tell me what you think.” They found a bunch of problems, which is great. That’s what they’re there for. A lot of little things you need to take control over and fix that might be very minor problems today but could be bigger problems in the future if you don’t do something with them. That’s why you want to take that report and go to town fixing all of the small things.
But the very first sentence in that report under the inspection terms and conditions was, “We might point out some visible mold. However, this is not a mold inspection. This inspection does not guarantee that the house either has or does not have mold.”
Most people don’t read the terms and conditions of what they’re actually buying. It’s really important because I feel like in this particular case, the client knows they will have to do their own mold inspection. That’s fine.
A lot of people don’t realize that this home inspection is meant to check out the age of your hot water heater and make sure there is not issues with the plumbing devices and electrical devices and overall cursory stuff. Very important stuff. You don’t want to skip it.
It’s not going to catch every problem. It certainly is not going to tell you if there is or isn’t mold inside the home. You want to have a separate mold inspection for that, especially considering a lot of the problems that I see in people’s homes. They’re hidden. They’re not obvious. If you don’t have a good inspection to look for those subtle signs of what could be a problem, and thentesting as close to the problem as possible, you will miss stuff.
I can’t tell you how many calls I’ve gotten from clients over the years, “I just bought this new house. It was built eight years ago. Place was kept in great condition. I moved in and got sick. I need your help.” Just because it’s eight years old, just because it was kept in good condition, doesn’t mean the person who sold you the house, doesn’t mean there was an issue they didn’t know about. A lot of this stuff can be hidden. That’s why it’s so important to get an inspection.
It’s like going to a doctor. You feel a symptom, but the problem is hidden. If you knew what the problem was, you wouldn’t go to a doctor. The problem is hidden, and it’s a doctor’s job to diagnose what the problem might be, so you can get to the solution and the root cause to fix the problem.
It’s not different in a home. You have to diagnose what the problem is. The problem is often hidden. It’s not obvious. It really takes working with specialists to help you get to where you want to go. Hopefully, when you’re listening, you have this aha moment. It really takes a good professional team to help you get where you want to go.
Dr. Eric:
The different types of mold. You named a few before. I know some are more harmful than others. Are there other molds that are a big concern?
I bring this up because we’ll talk about testing, the dust test that you recommend. I don’t know your thoughts on urinary mycotoxins tests. I see a lot of Ochratoxin A. I don’t know if that’s even in small amounts if it’s a concern, and if it’s mostly from the environment, or also you can get mold from food as well. I believe Ochratoxin A could be potentially from food.
If you could just spend a few minutes talking about some of the more concerning molds. I want to hear your thoughts on Ochratoxin Aand any other direction you want to go in this area.
Michael:
I have always been concerned about molds that are in the highest quantities. I want to give you an example. Dust is not toxic, typically. Obviously, dust can be many things.
Let’s say this. Sand is not typically toxic. If I drop you in the middle of a sandstorm, you’re probably not going to feel well. Why is that? The amount of sand is overloading your mucus membranes, your lungs. The systems that are designed to protect you from particles become overloaded. You start coughing. You don’t feel well. Everything will be irritated. You probably won’t feel well for a week.
Why am I bringing that up? If I put you in a moldy home, I don’t care what kind of mold it is. If there is so much of it there, even if it’s Cladosporium, which is more of an allergenic mold that typically doesn’t create toxins, that we know of, you will still feel not your best. I want to start there.
Yes, there are molds that are more concerning than others. These molds are the ones that are either toxigenic or produce mycotoxins which themselves are toxic.
I think I always look at it from this perspective. What is the person complaining about? What is the overall problem they’re trying to solve? How do I help you solve it? Let’s say they have Cladosporium in an attic, and it’s elevated. I have other issues in the home that have way more toxic molds, that have higher quantities, and we’re dealing with a budget because who isn’t? We will want to focus on other things.
I look at all the pieces of the puzzle together and say, “What is it that the person is experiencing? How can we help assist them in creating as healthy of an environment as possible?” It becomes a chess match in terms of trying to figure out where I can make these improvements, so the person is going to breathe in cleaner air, not only scientifically, but what gives them the best shot to get into this environment they can actually heal in.
I am not a healer. I am not a doctor. That’s why this is so important that I work with doctors like Dr. Eric here. At the end of the day, we want to have a tag team approach, where I am creating the environment for them to heal in. When you’re dealing with toxins, you will have to detox. You will have to pull the toxins out of your body. That’s really important to understand. This is a multipronged approach.
I’m a data-driven guy. Let’s say you do have high levels of Ochratoxin Afrom this mycotoxin urinary analysis. I will look for the exact molds in the home, like Aspergillus, that can produce Ochratoxin A. If I see that we have Ochratoxin Aoff the charts, and we have the exact molds, like aspergillus producing the Ochratoxin A, then I will probably tell the client, “To me, it’s a no-brainer. Let’s reduce the amount of Aspergillus you’re being exposed to that produces that exact toxin. At the same time, let’s make sure you’re not eating a diet full of moldy foods, like let’s switch your Folgers coffee to something that’s a little cleaner that might test their coffee for mycotoxins, as one example. Let’s do everything we can to reduce your exposure.”
Usually, when you follow that method of madness, people talk about the most miraculous changes in the overall way they feel, the symptoms they used to experience, all kinds of things.
Shannon Hill is a customer of mine who just within seven days of moving out of her house, so we could go fix her house. She literally was able to remove a GJ feeding tube that was installed into her lower intestine. She was so sick with POTS that she literally couldn’t eat anymore without throwing up. They had to install a GJ Feeding tube to give her the nutrients she needed to be able to stay alive. To remove that within seven days of moving out of your house is incredible.Obviously, thereafter was a long road to recovery.
Could you just imagine that much of a change in your quality of life? It’s miraculous. This is the power of transforming your environment, reducing the amount of toxins you’re breathing, and also working with a doctor to help you simultaneously remove the toxins. It’s life-changing.
You asked about the efficacy of mycotoxin urinary analysis. The method of which you’re doing the analysis, as long as the lab uses ELISA, which is the only validated method for mycotoxin analysis, I don’t see any issue with urinary analysis.
I know that there are some arguments out there regarding if it’s in the home, is it food. It’s hard to answer that question unless you test the home and see what correlation there is. If you see a correlation, it’s a no-brainer. Let’s reduce what we’re being exposed to in the home. That is the way I have approached it. I don’t have a horse in that race in terms of which analysis is the best analysis.
I will say if I see a correlation, I am going to want to guide you to reducing that, so we can get some improvements.
Dr. Eric:
Makes sense. If you see anything significant on the testing, you are going to recommend for the client to address it, which makes sense.
The testing that you recommend, do you recommend the dust test? That’s a PCR-based test, correct?
Michael:
Correct.
Dr. Eric:
How is that different from some of the other testing out there? The plates they use and ERMI testing.
Michael:
Taking a step back, why did I create the dust test in general? Prior to the dust test, people were notoriously using a test called ERMI. It’s still a test out there that people use today. One of the biggest problems I was trying to solve with ERMI, for those who don’t know, ERMI stands for the Environmental Relative Moldiness Index. It is the index behind the data.
Forexample, ERMI uses PCR, just like the dust test. The same technology, MSQPCR. It is a DNA-specific analysis of the particles present in the dust. You take a Swiffer cloth, collect dust from across the house, and scrape 5mg of dust off the Swiffer cloth. You analyze that dust across 36 different species. It will tell you how many particles per mg of dust. They are particles. They are not even the full spore. It’s just whatever particles that could be matched using DNA and how much of each different species do we have of particles per mg of dust.
Now, the value of that is being able to look at the data and say, “That’s a lot of Stachybotrys. If I am seeing a lot of Stachybotrys, that means we have active leaks, or we have had active leaks in the past that maybe are no longer leaking, but the mold was never gotten rid of. It’s still there.” We are looking for active or past leaks.
If I see very high levels of Aspergillus or Penicillium per mg of dust, I’m going, “Okay, I have some humidity issues in the home. Maybe I have alot of mold growth from the HVAC system because there is a lot of moisture that naturally occurs there. Maybe I have a crawl space. Maybe I have waterproofing issues in the bathroom.”
Based upon the type of mold, I am able to have a good gut feeling as to what’s going on in the environment. Then I can make recommendations to do deeper investigations from there.
It’s a very good pre-inspection tool that helps me understand what’s going on in the home. What are people exposed to?
The ERMI score is the score that people typically refer to. It’s not the same thing as the technology, which is MSQPCR.
Basically, the EPA did a joint study, and they investigated 1,000 homes using this technology. They were like, okay, this is about the average home, what it has. That was helpful, but then the score is where things got very flawed.
When I first started in the industry, ERMI was relatively new. You had doctors out there saying, “I need an ERMI score below a 2.” There was a lot of confusion as to what the score meant. The problem with the score is I could open windows and have a ton of outdoor molds come into the home from group 2, and when I do that, I’m going to lower the score.
Now, I can have a low score but have a ton of Stachybotrys or group 1 molds in the environment. Does that mean I have a healthy home? No, it doesn’t. So the score methodology became flawed.
When you remediate, you are removing molds in both columns. The score won’t improve. The score is a subtraction methodology. If I’m subtracting from both columns, I’m not just removing the bad stuff but leaving the good stuff. That score isn’t going to improve. It’s going to stay where it is.
It became really flawed in terms of trying to help people understand where their environment is and if it needs repair, or if the repair has been successful. It created so much confusion there over the last decade.
We need something that gets rid of the score that is imperfect, but the data that everything is built on that is so useful to help us see what is going on inside the home. We need to improve that.
One of the other problems we are trying to solve is a lot of people were like, “I’ve got some mold. What does it mean for me?” This is where correlation really helps. If I’ve got high levels of Ochratoxin A and high levels of Aspergillus that produce Ochratoxin A or Stachybotrys and Trichothecenes, etc., I might now understand that I have the exact toxins in my body that are produced in the exact molds in my home. I might want to take some action. That might help people understand if they make an investment in the air quality of the environment they’re in, it might yield a positive result.
We wanted to help people correlate that data, so they can get to the answers theyneed faster. The dust test is the first test out in the marketplace where you can upload your mycotoxin results from any lab. Doesn’t matter if you get it from Real Time, Mosaic, Vibrant, etc. You can upload your test results from any lab, and it will help you match the toxins in your body withthe molds in your home, so you can decide what you want to do about it.
Do you want to invest money and figure out where the problems are coming from and help eradicate them and reduce your exposure? I hope you do. That’s the reason we’re talking today. That is the idea: to help you get the information you need in a very easy to understand way.
The dust test for me was a tool to help solve a multitude of issues with the technology and how people receive that information. Help themget where they need to go faster through a data-driven process.
Dr. Eric:
That’s really cool. You can upload your mycotoxin test results and see which molds are positive on the dust test and which ones need to be addressed. This obviously makes a lot of sense. Like you said, if you have the dust mycotoxins present and see the molds that correlate with those mycotoxins, you want to get rid of them.
What would be the next step if someone orders a dust test? They find positive mold in the house. Would they then want to hire someone to inspect the home and look? Would they want to call their HVAC? Even if they want to do that, they’re not mold experts, so they might contact your company. Your company offers not just testing but remediation throughout the US.
Michael:
Yes. We make it very simple. When you use the dust test technology, it helps you correlate. It will say next steps. You click on that. It tells you, “Hey, you should clean your HVAC and retest.” Maybe that’s option one.
Option two might be like, based upon your specific results, you probably need an inspection. If you click here, we’ll tell you all the inspectors we work with who we think do a good enough job to help you uncover where the problems are.
That is another topic and issue we’re experiencing across the industry. The different technologies that are available for testing, a lot of inspectors don’t understand those technologies, and they don’t use them properly. You get false negatives when there is actually an issue, or they don’t evenuse any technologies.
They just walk through your house and say you have the most clean house in the world, so there are no problems here. Meanwhile, you have crazy amounts of Stachybotrys behind the wall. On the surface, it looked clean. You would have never guessed. It was like a subtle rusted nail at the very bottom of this baseboard that gave us that super subtle sign. When you opened up the wall, the entire wall was full of termites, mold, you name it.
We need people to be more trained in looking for subtle signs and then testing to actually see where the problems are. If we do that, we’re going to help people get down to the root cause of the issue.
Through the dust test, we’ll help you find somebody that can inspect your home properly. It’s one of those things. You can go to a lab and check your Vitamin D levels. Maybe for you, that’s enough. But for most people, you’re going to want to test a few different things and get a pretty comprehensive lab. That will cost more money than just checking your Vitamin D levels.
When we talk about the different types of testing, sure, you could spend $50 and get an agar plate. You can get 10 of those and scatter them around the house. That won’t help you. It won’t tell you where the problem is coming from.
The further away you put the plate, the less growth you will have on the plate. The closer you put the plate to your problem, the more growth you will have on the plate. Where do you put the plates? You have to put it where you think the problems are. How do you know where the problems are? You have to know how to look for problems.
As you can see, it becomes this difficult thing. I have to be skilled at what I do to find problems, and then the testing just becomes a verification of this is the problem, this is the type of problem, this is how much the problem is. You can see the types of mold, the quantities of mold. That gives you a good indication of how much you have to rip the wall openand see what’s going on and then fix it.
I think it’s really important that you’re not necessarily looking for the cheapest solution when it comes to inspecting your home. You are looking for the right one. The right one will typically be a thorough approach with finding these subtle problems and hidden issues and then testing to verify to see if they are issues. If they are, what type and how big. That really helps drive what you do about it.
You see on the screen here, Michael Rubino, founder of HomeCleanse. I created a company that is nationwide and helps people fix their homes. We need data, the right data, to fix your home. I can’t fix a problem behind a wall if I don’t know there is a problem behind a wall. I need that data to help drive forward what are we doing to this home? How are we going to improve it? What can we do to make sure it never comes back?
That’s why data is so important. It’d be like going to a surgeon with no data. “What am I doing here?”“I don’t know. Just make me feel better, Doc.” You need that data to understand what you need to do. The home is no different.
Dr. Eric:
Makes sense. What is important is you mentioned that a home could look pristine. You mentioned the subtle signs. Someone might not have visible water damage. Arguably, you would know more than me. Maybe more times than not, there is no visible water damage, even when there is mold. Things overall do look pretty good. Like you said, it could be behind thewalls, underneath the floors, in the crawl space or HVAC systems. A lot of places to look. Many people simply don’t look at.
Once the mold is remediated, or let’s say it’s a scenario where someone does a test, and it looks good. What can they do to maintain it? You recommend air purification systems, maintaining the HVAC system, like we have. We have someone come twice a year for our HVAC system to tune it up and maintain it. I assume those things. Anything else?
Michael:
You hit the nail on the head. Once you get the perfect environment, you want to keep it that way. Routine inspections help. Making sure your roof is inspected every year is important. Our roofs are constantly exposed to the elements and weather. It gets windy. Things blow around. You get a lot of rain. Some locations, you get snow and hail. Your roof does take a beating year over year. You want to inspect your roof because if your roof leaks, you will most certainly have water damage and mold. That’s an easy one.
Doors and windows, same thing. They unfortunately don’t last forever. Waterproofing around the doors doesn’t last forever. When those things start to fail, water comes in. Even though it’s not obvious. Sometimes, your drywall looks fine, but water is coming in. It’s coming in behind the drywall, and you don’t know it. Inspecting doors and windows is important.
The HVAC system is the lungs of the home. Many HVAC companies do not know much about mold and do not know much about air quality. Sounds crazy, I know. They’re very good at putting metal together. They’re very good at installing systems and making sure they’re wired up and plumbed properly.
When it comes to the indoor air quality, they don’t know as much. Many of them don’t even know what a Manual J load calculation is. If you don’t know what that is, that is the calculation you do to understand the size of the unit you should be installing, the size of the ductwork you should be installing.
That is based upon many factors, like what type of windows you have and what type of doors you have. What is the installation value in those walls and the attic? It looks at the overall amount of heat or AC that a home might need. If a system is sized too big, it’s going to shut off a lot. When it shuts off a lot, it’s not removing the humidity. Therefore, you probably will have a humidity issue. These are the types of things that many HVAC guys unfortunately don’t know.
You want to make sure you’re vetting your HVAC contractors. You’re not just getting someone who will charge you to replace a filter and not actually inspect the system and make sure it’s going well.
The second thing is you probably want to do a deep cleaning once a year. You could decide to do it in the spring or the fall. Doing a deep cleaning of the evaporator coil, where typically mold and bacteria will grow, as well as cleaning out the ductwork once a year, is probably not a bad idea. It costs you a couple grand, but itwill save you a headache in the long run.
The longer you go without cleanings, the more mold and bacteria will naturally build up in that system. It’s unavoidable. Mold is part of our ecosystem.
The second thing you can do with your HVAC system is install a better filtration system. Many of us have MERV 8 filters on our HVAC systems. We don’t know to buy better filters because none of us have been educated on that. You want to get a better filter if you can.
In my home, I have a MERV 16 filter. It’s one you can get at HomeCleanse if you’re interested to see what it looks like. Basically, it stops particles as small as 7nm from entering into the system 95% of the time. Pretty good. Very small particle. About the size of some viruses. We’re getting real small.
Why do I want to have that? The less I let those particles recirculate throughout the lungs of my home, the more I am capturing these things before I am going to be breathing them in my bedroom at night. We want to look at how we maintain our systems. Installing better filtration is a way we can do just that.
Last but not least, you mentioned air purifiers. Those are amazing things. Having air purifiers in the home is great. Cleaning with non-toxic products instead of chemicals is great. Trying to be mindful about VOCs and some of the other things we bring into our home is smart.
We talked about the homes being tighter than ever before. If we open windows and get fresh air when it’s possible to do so, we should. Getting fresh air, ventilation in, ERV systems installed when we have really tight homes is a smart thing.
Cleaning regularly. Getting rid of dust as it builds up. We won’t just be getting rid of dead hair and skin cells when we do that. We are getting rid of all kinds of contaminants, like mold, bacteria, virus particles. The more we are exposing ourselves to those, the easier it is to get sick.
There are a lot of theories out there. “It’s good for our immune system to breathe all this stuff in.” I don’t think so. Global health is clearly declining. When you look at the trajectory of what we are actually breathing in today versus 30 years ago, it’s in line with the trajectory of chronic illness. We are breathing in a lot more harmful stuff at higher quantities than ever before because of the reasons I named earlier. We want to be more proactive and less reactive. Hopefully, the conversation has been helpful today to do just that.
Dr. Eric:
It’s been helpful for me. There are things I’m doing right, but I’d be lying if I told you we got our roof inspected annually. We probably need to do that. Same thing with cleaning out the ductwork once a year. I think a lot of people listening to this have room for improvement. This has been helpful for me. I’m sure for a lot of listeners, too.
I do have one more question. If someone has a mold issue, there are some people I’ve known who have tossed out everything. They have thrown out clothing, books, even furniture. Is that necessary? Does it depend on the situation? If someone has an extreme toxic mold problem, maybe it is, but in other cases, it’s not?
Michael:
Depends on the situation. I tell that toeverybody. If you have a larger home, you’re probably going to have more grace. The items closest to the problem will likely be more contaminated than the items further away from the problem.
I know that’s not fair. It’s unfortunately economically disproportional. It’s true. When you hear all these stories about everybody burning everything and throwing everything away, these are really worst-case scenarios. It doesn’t mean everybody needs to do that.
There are really inexpensivetape tests you can do, like $35 tests, where you stick a piece of tape on furniture, and you can collect a couple times across each piece. You want to collect to see what mold spores might be present. You can analyze it.
Most often, you will find a lot of the stuff isn’t as contaminated as you might think, which is good. Sometimes, it is, and it just depends on where that item is in relationship to the problems and how bad your problems are.
It’s such a huge variable. It’s easy to get overwhelmed and say, “My neighbor had to do this,” or “I saw in a Facebook group they had to throw everything away and move into a tent.” For some people, that might be what’s necessary. They might be really sick, and their stuff may be very contaminated. Their situation may be very different than yours.
It’s really important for you to trust the process. I would go through it. Obviously, you want to ask these questions. “Hey, what’s my situation like? Should I be more concerned about my stuff?” I get asked that question on every call I’m on. “Should I throw everything away? What’s my situation like?”Most of the time, people don’t want to throw things away. Shocker. It’s another added expense.
We are looking at, in this room, it’s really bad. We should probably be more pragmatic about the things in this room. The stuff across the hall, I’m not as concerned about. We can do a tape test and see what the results look like, so we can make a data-driven decision.
I have been doing this for a long time. The closer you get to the source, it’s theworst. The further away, it gets less and less. This allows us to have some grace when we are thinking about the contents in the home and go through it pragmatically.
Let’s get rid of the problems first. The stuff isn’t the problem. It’s what’s creating the toxins, the spores that is getting all over the stuff that is the problem. Let’s start there. Let’s clean up the environment. Let’s see how you feel. We can always remove things later. That stuff isn’t the source. It’s contaminated by the source. We can always remove contaminated things later. We can’t mess around with the sources. Always want to start there, and let the process dictate, based upon how you feel.
Dr. Eric:
Makes sense. This was amazing. This was a great conversation. Appreciate you coming on the podcast to have this conversation.
Where can people find out more about you? For those who are interested in ordering the dust test and seeing if mold is a problem in their home. Let them know where they can find you and get the test.
Michael:
I have a personal website, TheMichaelRubino.com. It goes along with all the socials, TheMichaelRubino on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, etc.
From there, you can see everything I’m doing. We have HomeCleanse, HomeCleanse.com. That helps you with the products and services to create better indoor air quality. You can find the dust test on there.
You have Change the Air Foundation, which is a 501(c)3 nonprofit that I’m chairman of the board of. It’s an amazing foundation. There are a ton of free resources, education. We’re out there, fighting for policy change. One of the main pillars of what we do. We know that this is a systemic issue and want to help Congress create powerful legislation that helps protect us against this epidemic. Your support there is always appreciated.
We definitely are here creating the solutions to help people. Please follow along. We’re happy to help.
Dr. Eric:
Wonderful. Michael, this was a pleasure. Thank you again for sharing everything. Looking forward to people’s reactions to this. This is really eye-opening, some of the things you mentioned. There is definitely a lot more that people can do. Even though more people are aware of mold, it’s still greatly overlooked by a lot of other people.
Michael:
You’re so right. I really appreciate you obviously and everything you’re doing. I can’t tell you how many people have come to us who are your patients looking for guidance. It means the world that there are great minds out there who are seeing this as such an important issue and helping people get through it. Thank you for all you do. Really appreciate your work. Glad that we’re able to help educate on the importance of indoor air quality.
Dr. Eric:
Definitely. Thanks again. Have an awesome day. Thanks everyone for listening.
***
That was a great conversation with Michael Rubino.
Hidden mold. Arguably, a lot of mold is hidden. It can be behind walls, under floors, in a crawlspace, in the HVAC system. Just because you can’t see mold doesn’t mean you don’t have a mold problem.
Even new construction, as Michael discussed, can have mold for some of the reasons he mentioned. Even if you have a newer home, it doesn’t rule out mold.
Based on this, the next question is should everyone test for mold? Over the years, I can’t say I have had everybody test for mold. I have had a lot of people do urinary mycotoxin tests, but not most people I work with. Same with testing a house for mold.
Whenever I work with someone, I send a comprehensive follow-up email. From this point on, I think I’m going to give an option to purchase the dust test as well as include this podcast episode once it’s available in that email, so they can learn more about why they might want to consider testing their home for mold rather than someone goes a few months, and they hit a roadblock in their recovery, and later on, we test for mold.
It does depend on the person. I am not saying we never test for mold initially. Across the board, I don’t do this. Based on our conversation, there definitely are people who have it. Maybe they have it, and it’s not the reason why they have Graves’ or Hashimoto’s or another chronic health condition. Maybe it has nothing to do with their progress. Maybe they will progress fine even though they have some mold in the home. In some cases, it will affect someone’s recovery.
This isn’t just about reversing one’s thyroid or autoimmune thyroid condition. That’s a big part of the podcast. But also helping someone achieve optimal health overall as well.
I specifically want to mention Ochratoxin A because I see this a lot on urinary mycotoxins tests. I wouldn’t say some dismiss it, but lower levels are typically dismissed. He did say that high levels are problematic. True with any mold.
If Ochratoxin A shows up in lower levels, maybe not as big of an issue. Maybe it is more related to food. Rather than making an assumption that it is related to food, maybe it is a good idea to do a test like the dust test.
I did not know before this conversation that you could upload your results. If you did a urinary mycotoxin test, you could upload those results. You do the dust test and do that correlation. If any of the molds in the home correlate with the urinary mycotoxins. Very interesting.
There are other mold tests I’ve recommended. I’m going to give this a try for a while. Michael Rubino seems to know what he’s talkingabout. I’ve had other people on the podcast as practitioner talk about different types of testing. Michael focuses on testing and remediation. At least for now, I’m going to start recommending the dust test.
Should you throw away your clothes, books, furniture if you have a mold issue? It depends on the person. If it’s a severe mold problem, and the person has severe symptoms, then maybe.
Also mentioned doing the tape test.
Preventing mold from developing. He mentioned doing HVAC inspections, which I do twice a year. I mentioned how I don’t do an annual roof inspection or the doors and windows. The reason I don’t have someone inspect my roof is you know how it is. Someone inspects it and says you need to fix it even if it doesn’t need fixing. It just means I need to get someone who I can trust, which is the case with any service or business.
Clean out ductwork once per year. Something we have done but not on an annual basis. Like he said, it can be pricey. If you’re trying to focus on your health, when we think about it, we spend so much money on other things that are less important. Something to consider.
HVAC filters. He recommends a MERV 16 filter, which I’m going to check out. He said it’s available on his website.
A great conversation. An important conversation. Not just an interesting one. It affects a lot of people. Alot of people who don’t realize it’s an issue. Unfortunately, a lot of people will never realize it’s an issue, just because they don’t know. It’s not just a matter of not opening up their mind, but some people don’t know. For example, my parents wouldn’t really think about it. It’s not that they’re not opening up their mind. A lot of people are not walking around thinking about mold as possibly being an issue in their house, even if someone has certain health conditions that might be related to it.
I like to think all the interviews I do are important and valuable. This isdefinitely one that most people, if not everyone, should listen to.
That being said, hope you found this episode to be valuable. Look forward to catching you in the next episode.