Recently, I interviewed VJ Hamilton,  The Autoimmune Nutritionist. We talked about overcoming alopecia areata and other forms of hair loss by addressing root causes. We dive into nutrient deficiencies, gut health, thyroid imbalances, and inflammation and how functional medicine can help hair grow back naturally. If you would prefer to listen to the interview you can access it by Clicking Here.

Dr. Eric Osansky: 

I am super excited to chat with VJ Hamilton. We are going to have a conversation on hair loss and alopecia. Let me go ahead and dive into VJ’s impressive bio here. Then we’ll start chatting about hair loss. 

VJ Hamilton, also known as the Autoimmune Nutritionist, is the founder of the Autoimmune Nutrition Clinic and a registered nutritionist specializing in reversing hair loss, particularly alopecia areata and other autoimmune conditions. 

With a medical science degree in biochemistry and immunology and certification from the Institute for Functional Medicine, VJ combines scientific expertise with lived experience to deliver evidence-based personalized therapy. Thank you so much for joining us, VJ. 

VJ Hamilton: 

Thank you. I’m excited to be here, Eric. 

Dr. Eric: 

This will be a great conversation. Unfortunately, a common problem. A lot of people experience hair loss. Definitely a lot of women with hyperthyroidism and hypothyroidism, thyroid hormone imbalances, a lot of people have alopecia areata, which is autoimmune. 

Let’s talk more about your background. How did you become interested in hair loss? You work with other types of autoimmune conditions. There is a personal story when it comes to hair loss, correct? 

VJ: 

Yeah. When I was seven years old, my parents discovered a circular patch of hair loss at the back of my head. I went to a dermatologist and was diagnosed with alopecia areata. We didn’t really explore any root causes back then in the late ’80s. I was asked about stress. As a seven-year-old, I liked school and took it quite seriously. I had a few unsettling things happening at home with my parents splitting up. That was probably a factor. We didn’t think any more of it. 

My mom was training as a nurse at the time. She switched my breakfast from cereal to eggs, which was quite forward-thinking. They gave me a steroid cream. My dad applied it every night, and my hair grew back. 

Unfortunately, my hair kept coming out in cycles, especially after stressful events or being ill. This went on and on for many years, 25 years. I had some success with different protocols I followed. I did develop other conditions like psoriasis and chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS). 

I discovered functional medicine. I’d been to university to do my science degree. I discovered functional medicine and nutritional therapy in my early 30s. I was living with chronic fatigue syndrome at the time and thought I couldn’t live with it any longer. The alopecia was something I was used to managing. The psoriasis, I was managing. The CFS, I needed to do something about because I couldn’t live a normal life. 

By working on my gut, nutrient deficiencies, thyroid health, all these different aspects, my hair grew back. I was thinking, if it grows back for a year, that’s the best it’s ever been. It grew back for a year. I was thinking, how long has it been now? From there, it has grown back, and it has not fallen out again, which was over nine years ago now. My fatigue reversed. My psoriasis went away. I had niggly things going on with joint health and other skin issues. Everything reversed by taking that root cause approach. 

That is how I work with clients now. We really work on the underlying imbalances, any triggers that might have caused the hair loss. I work with all different autoimmune diseases, but I work with a large amount of clients who have hair loss. People hear my story. When you are working with anybody who has been through something yourselves. That’s why you work in the area that you work in as well. People like that you’ve lived it. 

I find that everybody’s root cause is different. I am very passionate about helping people with hair loss. How it can affect you, especially when I was a child. It can make you feel self-conscious. It can affect your self-confidence. Because it is showing that there is an underlying imbalance that needs to be worked on as well. 

I work with children and adults with alopecia. It is really rewarding when you see somebody grow their hair back and get their life back. It’s not to say that if you haven’t experienced that- We should accept everybody as they are. There can be that sign if you are losing your hair that there needs to be a health issue that needs to be worked on. That’s what I find with my clients. Once we work on that, their hair grows back like it did for me. 

Dr. Eric: 

You said that you had severe fatigue, which is no longer a problem. You also said you had psoriasis, so I assume that is also resolved? 

VJ: 

Yes. Everything resolved once the fatigue resolved. The fatigue was the first thing to reverse, if you want to call it that. I had a realization one day that I wasn’t fatigued anymore. I just lived with it for such a long time. I thought, actually, I can exercise, and I am not feeling tired for five days. I can wake up in the morning and not drag myself out of bed. I am not falling asleep on the tube anymore. I am able to work through the afternoon without feeling like all I can focus on is staying awake. There were subtle changes. One day, I realized the fatigue is gone. 

Then the hair started growing back. The psoriasis took a little longer. Once I was getting better and making changes with my gut health, I had a few flares. I got hives at one point. I had different outbreaks as part of getting better. All the skin issues then resolved as well. I rarely react to insect bites anymore, and that was something I was really reacting to at one point as well. It just shows that by working on the nutrient deficiencies, the gut health, the energy system in the body, it has an effect on so many areas. 

Dr. Eric: 

Agreed. With alopecia areata, that is autoimmune, just like Graves’, Hashimoto’s, MS, etc. There are also non-autoimmune causes of hair loss. When you deal with someone who doesn’t have alopecia areata but a different autoimmune condition that has hair loss, what are some of those potential causes? 

VJ: 

Sometimes, it can all go down to the same root causes. It’s all about the hair growth cycle for the most part. Alopecia areata is an immune condition rather than a hair issue. Sometimes, it can be that somebody doesn’t have the nutrients to grow their hair. Or they go through a stressful event and have telogen effluvium, so that’s a factor for somebody. 

The cycle of hair growth. Most of the time, you want your hair to be in the growth phase. It will detach from the hair follicle. Even when it’s detached from the hair follicle, it hasn’t come out of the hair follicle yet. 

When I am working with clients who have alopecia or hair loss, it sometimes is something that happened a couple months ago, and then they are seeing the shedding. What happens when you’re stressed or have a thyroid condition or toxicity or stress around the hair follicle or nutrient deficiencies like ferritin or iron, it pushes the hair into the telogen phase, which is where you start losing your hair and get shedding of hair. That’s what’s happening with some other forms of hair loss. 

That can be to do with gut health. If you’re not digesting your food and absorbing your nutrients, you might not be getting enough protein or iron in your diet. You might not be absorbing it in your gut. You might be low on B vitamins or zinc. All of those things can affect hair loss.

Stress in and of itself could be the trigger for hair loss. It could be the cause of something like alopecia areata or telogen effluvium. When someone comes to me with stress-related hair loss, I am always 90% if not higher confident they will get their hair to grow back, once we get the nervous system calmer, and they have been through that stressful event. 

I don’t think I have ever worked with someone who hasn’t gotten their hair to grow back after telogen effluvium. Sometimes, it can happen after a virus or infection as well. Alopecia areata, there is a bit more to think about because it is an autoimmune condition.

There is female pattern hair loss, male pattern hair loss. The hair follicle gets smaller and smaller. That is a different type of hair loss altogether. In some respects, it’s just a normal process that we go through in life. There are things you can do and nutrients you can think about using that can help with that type of hair loss. 

For the most part, I am working with alopecia areata and telogen effluvium. There are certain autoimmune conditions that in and of themselves can cause hair loss, like Hashimoto’s. It’s one of the symptoms of Hashimoto’s. You could have different types of systemic lupus, where hair loss is a symptom. Certain autoimmune conditions, some of the symptoms can be hair loss. 

Alopecia areata is specifically a circular patchy hair loss. Some people will develop alopecia totalis or alopecia universalis. Totalis is full hair loss of the head. Universalis is full hair loss all over the body and head. Some people will develop that as well, and that is the autoimmune type of hair loss. 

I am assessing the type of hair loss. For the most part, I am working with people with alopecia areata or possibly lupus. 

Dr. Eric:

It sounds like there are multiple causes and factors. You said that the shedding of the hair can happen. It can take time for that to happen. Even if there is a triggering event, it’s not like the person will necessarily notice a loss of hair right away. 

I know the reverse is true, too. When you start correcting the problem, it can also take time to see the hair loss stopping and growing back. 

VJ: 

Yeah, it does take time. I will normally work with clients over a 3-6-month period, especially with alopecia areata. I’d like them to be seeing results by the time we stop working together. Realistically, it can take time. It depends where you are catching the hair growth cycle as well. You want to be in that halogen growth phase. That can take time. 

Part of it is calming down the immune system when I am first working with a client. Stabilizing all of their systems. Bringing down the inflammatory response. Then you think about how you stimulate the hair growth after that and energize the hair follicles. Before that, you want to stabilize everything in the body. That might mean you won’t see any hair growth in that phase. You have to be patient with it and have faith in the process. 

When I am working with clients who are experiencing alopecia, we note other symptoms as well, like monitoring gut health, fatigue, other skin conditions. If we are seeing progress with those, and we know things are changing for the better, ordinarily by the second appointment, they will see growth around that phase. It can be fair hairs to start with, and you do want those darker hairs coming through. This is where we are seeing good growth now. That can take time. Normally, by the second appointment. 

By the third appointment, when clients can see that hair growth coming back, they maintain that because they know what is working for them. They have the right nutrients. Hopefully by the six-month or nine-month mark, they have a good covering of hair. 

That happens with 80% of my clients. I have more complex cases where it is harder to get their hair to grow. There is more going on in the body that can take a long time, a year, 18 months, sometimes two years. Sometimes, honestly, we can’t get it to grow back. That’s just what happens. As long as you’re healthy and feeling good, you can still live a good life without hair. 

The truth is, you can be healthy and have alopecia because it’s normally what happens. Years ago, when you first lost the hair, when there was the inflammation and issues with hair growth, sometimes, and I don’t think there is any evidence of why this is the case, some people find it very hard to get their hair to grow back. If you have left it for a longer period of time to try to do anything about it. I find most success when people notice their hair loss and come to me, and we are almost proactive around it. That’s when I see the best results. 

Dr. Eric: 

When you say inflammation, do you mean specifically gut inflammation or overall systemic inflammation? Or does it vary depending on the person? 

VJ: 

It can vary. A lot of people will say they can feel the inflammation in their scalp. This goes for other autoimmune conditions as well, like lupus. Clients will say their scalp feels like it’s burning, or just before they lost the patch of hair, they felt some tingling sensations on the scalp. That is often a sign of localized inflammation. 

It’s not just about the scalp. It’s probably coming from other areas in the body. It is more likely to be systemic inflammation or gut inflammation driving that. It can be localized and systemic. 

Some people might not have those obvious markers of inflammation either. It could be something going on in the gut. You can do high sensitivity C reactive protein and look more at systemic inflammation that would be caused by an infection, toxicity, or something else going on in the body. It’s not always inflammation. Sometimes, people’s inflammation markers will be really low, and they are still experiencing hair loss. 

Dr. Eric: 

Makes sense. Just because someone has a positive CRP, chances are they have inflammation. If it’s negative, it doesn’t completely rule out inflammation. Same thing, if you do a comprehensive stool test, a lot of people have calprotectins that look good, which is a marker of inflammation. If calprotectin is elevated, you can assume the person has gut inflammation. Just because it’s normal doesn’t mean there is absolutely no inflammation in the gut.  

VJ: 

Exactly. 

Dr. Eric:

I listened to some of your podcast episodes. I know there was at least one where you spoke about hair loss. I think there were a few that I grabbed some questions from. One was the five markers that you recommend for those experiencing hair loss. Can you talk about those? 

VJ: 

The first one, you may have heard of this, especially if you are experiencing hair loss: ferritin. Ferritin is our iron store. It is good to get the full iron panel if you aren’t getting this tested, so you can get a bit of a better sense of why your ferritin levels might be high or low. If you have inflammation, your ferritin levels can be high because of the inflammation. You just need to take it in the context of the markers. 

When your iron stores are very low, it just means that you’re not able to circulate oxygen and nutrients to the hair follicle. It can cause an issue with the immune system as well. Our mitochondria, our energy organelle in the cell, isn’t able to work effectively when you have low iron. 

Your hair follicles need lots of energy to grow that hair. When iron is low, it will be harder to get hair to grow back. It’s like with anything. Growing hair, while it’s growing, still needs all these nutrients. When you’re boosting it to regrow again and get everything calm around the hair follicle, you need to make sure you have enough. 

This can come from diet. If you are following a vegan or vegetarian diet, you might not be getting enough iron in your diet. I was vegetarian for 11 years and didn’t think about that. Red meat and more animal-based products have that active form of iron that is far easier for our bodies to use. It can get more complicated when we are trying to get iron from spinach and combining it with certain nutrients. That is something to think about.

When there are issues with the gut, for example with Celiac, low iron would be a symptom. If you have low iron, but you are eating quite an iron-rich diet, it’s worth looking at what’s happening in the gut. If there is damage in the gut lining, you won’t be absorbing as much. It gives you some information, which is good.

The other markers are of course the thyroid markers. If you can get a full thyroid panel, in the UK, there aren’t normally tests here that give you the full picture. When clients come to me, we often do a full panel. We need our metabolism for that hair growth cycle. 

When our thyroid hormones are low, it’s far more likely to push into that telogen phase. It can also affect the immune system as well. I know when I was younger, my parents were claiming on the health insurance. They came back to me after we claimed a few times. They said I wouldn’t be insured for any thyroid issues. They know there is a link with your thyroid. 

Certain immune conditions like Hashimoto’s, there will be hair loss, and there is a link with alopecia areata. My TSH was all over the place at one point. I know I had been diagnosed with a certain thyroid condition. There was a lot going on. My T3 was really low at one point. That is what I will see. Even if they don’t have Hashimoto’s, they can have very low thyroid hormones.

Next is Vitamin D. The hair follicle is what we call an immune-privileged site. The immune system shouldn’t be able to penetrate it. At the minute, I am pretty obsessed with this barrier function, which I know we have heard so much about the leaky gut. The barriers in our body protect certain molecules or systems or organs from the immune system attack. When that barrier is broken down, that is when the immune system can get to it and cause an issue. 

Vitamin D is really important for modulating the immune system and keeping that hair follicle protected from it. Checking your Vitamin D levels is vital. I would say anybody with an autoimmune condition, if you aren’t checking Vitamin D levels regularly, you really should be. There are so many studies which show that low Vitamin D can cause an issue if it’s related to so many autoimmune conditions, including alopecia areata. There is a study that showed people with alopecia areata were 2-3 times more likely to have low Vitamin D than the average person. That is certainly worth testing.

Your zinc levels are important. Zinc has to be balanced with copper. It’s worth bearing that in mind. With Vitamin D as well, you need to be balanced with Vitamin K and magnesium. Your zinc levels are important for your immune function, hair growth. Zinc needs to be balanced with copper. I find a lot of my clients have a zinc deficiency as well, which can affect the immune response. 

The four main markers are there. Then, from my perspective, I am a bit obsessed with Vitamin B12. Folate is also really important. It’s important for our cells and cellular health and energy production. Our red blood cells as well. They are what help transport these nutrients around the body. They are important for the immune system as well. 

I was always deficient in Vitamin B12, so that’s why I am obsessed. When you are deficient in Vitamin B12, you have enlarged red blood cells. You need B12 to help those red blood cells mature. 

When they are premature, they are large. You can think about the capillaries up to the hair follicle are tiny. If you have enlarged red blood cells, you probably can’t get oxygen to the right place. 

You see this in MS as well. My brother has MS. He also has this issue with Vitamin B12. You can see how that can create a problem. He has hypoxia. You can’t get oxygen to certain parts of the brain, hair follicles, spine. 

For me, checking B12 and folate, because they work synergistically together, is another key marker. That is more a personal one. It’s probably not an obvious one for everyone. I do find a lot of clients are deficient in B12 or folate as well. 

Dr. Eric: 

B12, folate, iron, Vitamin D, zinc. 

There is a lot of talk about: Is biotin overrated when it comes to hair loss? Is it important in your opinion? Can a biotin deficiency cause hair loss commonly? 

VJ: 

I think if you have a deficiency, most studies are around nail health rather than hair health. Studies do prove that biotin deficiency can cause an issue with nails. I don’t think it’s as conclusive around hair growth, even though I know every supplement out there has high biotin in it. 

There is an interesting study relating to biotin in MS. Maybe it’s just a personal thing for me. They have shown now that biotin can be helpful for MS as well. 

I think any deficiency can cause an imbalance in some system, and if you have a certain genetic susceptibility to one of those nutrients, that can create a problem for you. When we’re taking excess biotin, it probably isn’t going to be helpful. 

The truth is, what biotin does is it helps with protein synthesis. This isn’t based on science. When I was doing a trichology qualification, they mentioned it. I thought from a hypothesis perspective it made some sense. They said if you take high-strength biotin, it helps to make proteins in the body. If you are protein deficient, where does it get the protein from? It could probably cause more harm than good if you have it in excess amounts. I would be conscious of that.

The B vitamins work together. If you are taking one at really high strength, and you don’t know whether you need it or not, I personally don’t use that approach with my clients unless I think there is a requirement for it. 

Dr. Eric: 

Also, biotin can affect the thyroid values. You want to be careful if you are doing blood testing if you are taking anything with biotin, especially higher doses. Take a break from it for at least a few days before doing a blood draw. 

You mentioned zinc. Any other nutrients like selenium, Vitamin A? They’re all important obviously when it comes for hair loss specifically. 

VJ: 

If there is a thyroid component to it, and you think selenium could be one of the underlying root causes, selenium may be helpful. 

Vitamin A is generally important for skin health, the immune system, and fighting off infections, which could be at the root of someone’s hair loss. Vitamin A is where genetics plays a part. Some people will not be able to convert beta carotene to the active form of Vitamin A, which is most important when it comes to hair growth, skin health, and immune health. 

You find a lot of these supplements that you will buy for hair growth will have beta carotene in it. It’s an amazing antioxidant, but it’s not giving you the nutrient that you need. I would recommend taking cod liver oil over an expensive hair product that has beta carotene in it and doesn’t have active Vitamin A. 

What happens in the body is you will absorb the beta carotene, and your body converts it to Vitamin A. Some people can’t do that conversion. You are building up a lot of beta carotene and not processing the Vitamin A you need to use. It almost creates a deficiency in that way. I have seen that be an issue. That’s something to look for. 

When it comes to nutrients, I am working with my clients. There are certain things I would recommend for everyone who is experiencing hair loss. Some things that are more natural, and certain nutrients that will work for particular people, depending on what their underlying root cause is. It’s not always the same.

When I am working with children, they often have an issue in their gut, which has happened for various reasons. We deal with the issue in the gut. It might be a parasite, dysbiosis, inflammation. Then they start absorbing nutrients again. Ordinarily, their hair grows back. I see that so much with children. It is often to do with the gut. 

That could have been for me as well. Even when I was six weeks old, I was diagnosed with a milk allergy. I have done all the tests in the world, and I don’t have a milk allergy. I did come off milk. It was probably that my gut didn’t have the right gut bacteria, and I wasn’t able to digest the milk. I didn’t have the right bacteria at the time. That is what I see with children. 

It’s hard to say all of the nutrients. It just depends on what you’re deficient in. That can be dependent on your genetics, your gut health, your cellular health. Your cell membranes working appropriately, so you can utilize these vitamins. I’ll use things like organic acid tests to look at functional deficiencies as well. Some people can have very high levels of Vitamin B12 but at a functional level aren’t able to use it, so we need to explain why that’s the case.

Nutrient density is absolutely key when it comes to hair growth, whether it’s alopecia areata, telogen effluvium, or a different type of hair loss. You need to be eating nutrient-dense foods. When people are not eating as much nutrient-dense food, they start experiencing hair loss for that reason. I am always educating the children I work with and clients about how they can have hearty meals again rather than just salads. Let’s get hearty, good, healthy food that will nourish your body and hair follicles. 

Dr. Eric: 

Couldn’t agree more. Definitely want to eat whole, healthy foods in a nutrient-dense diet. If you are doing that and still experiencing hair loss, there could be other factors. 

You mentioned gut health being a big factor. How about stomach acid? If someone has low stomach acid, you need that to break down minerals and nutrients. Vitamin B12 is important for having healthy stomach acid. 

VJ: 

That’s huge. There are so many studies to support that as well. I’ll definitely be looking at that as a starter as well. If your stomach acid is low, it will affect the rest of the gut. That is normally stage one or two of the protocol. 

If I am working with someone whose stomach acid is low, you need to get that up as soon as possible to help with all the other aspects. That’s something that comes up as well. That can create dysbiosis and growth of different bacteria in the gut and other things getting through. Undigested food particles, which haven’t been broken down properly. You see that on stool test results, which is helpful. 

Dr. Eric: 

Hair growth supplements. You gave an example of beta carotene. A lot of these supplements have other things, too. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Nutrafol? It’s pretty popular here in the US. A lot of patients ask me about it. If you could talk about whether you recommend any hair growth supplements, or if you just focus on individual nutrients, healing the gut, saving your money and staying away from those. 

VJ: 

It’s hard, isn’t it. Not everyone will be working with a nutritional therapist. That’s what I would recommend you do. Learn about how to include these nutrients in your diet naturally. If there are some key vitamins you need, just taking those rather than taking a supplement which has a lot of different herbs in it, a lot of different vitamins, minerals that can create imbalances in the body. 

Especially when you have an autoimmune condition, you are so reactive. When you take anything with loads of ingredients in it, I find clients don’t know what they are reacting to anymore. They might be taking a powder. This has 50 different ingredients in it. Then they are taking a supplement. It’s hard to keep track of what’s working, what’s not working, what the client actually needs.

In the past, I took different supplements, which were specifically out there about hair growth. They’ve all had patterns and certain things in them like marine collagen or certain marine aspects to them. I took them. When I look back, at points, I felt like they might have helped to get my hair to grow back. This was when I was going through the cycles of hair growth and then loss. 

That’s why I took this other approach in my early 30s. I have gotten my hair to grow back, and I felt a massive shift in my own health. Taking a pill to help, it sometimes makes you feel better, so I do understand why people do it. It’s not going to help in the long run. If you want to take it and feel okay taking it, go for it. It’s not something I would particularly recommend. 

Dr. Eric: 

Okay. For those listening who are dealing with alopecia areata or another autoimmune condition with associated hair loss, what are some steps they could take to get started? 

VJ: 

If they are experiencing it in the moment or just have been diagnosed? 

Dr. Eric: 

The audience here, not to say there can’t be people with Graves’ or Hashimoto’s experiencing alopecia areata. As you know, you have one autoimmune condition, and you may develop others. Let’s say someone listening who has Graves’ or Hashimoto’s or a non-autoimmune thyroid condition are currently experiencing hair loss. 

Let’s take it a step further. I talk about hair loss. Of course, I’ll say balancing thyroid hormones and healing the gut. At the very least, let’s address the thyroid. The thyroid seems to be in balance. They are doing some of the foundational work, like eating nutrient-dense, managing stress. 

One of the more challenging cases, what would you recommend in that situation? They have done some of the basics. I am eating pretty healthy. I am doing things for my thyroid. What other steps should I take? 

VJ: 

When clients come to me, and they are in that position, they have tried lots of things, and for whatever reason it’s not working, that’s when I can work with them as a practitioner and go through all the timeline health history. See if I can get more ideas about what might be causing it. 

You can also do functional testing. However, I know not everyone can do that. You can do it yourself as well. Just work through how things have developed over time. That will give you more ideas as to whether it was triggered by infection or your gut. I do think at that point, you need to take more of a focused protocol of working on a specific area and potentially a specific issue. 

If you feel like you have been doing everything right, exploring your environment as well. When I am working with more complex cases, there can be mold toxicity or chemical toxicity that can be contributing to it. That’s when I’m working with my more complex cases. 

If someone has tried everything and is not seeing results, the ferritin isn’t getting higher, you have tried iron supplements and it’s not moving, then we’re thinking there is something going on with the gut. 

If you have bacteria that have been there for a long period of time, or a parasite, or any kind of inflammation, like food reactivity to some degree, you have to take a focused protocol to work on that. Then once you have dealt with that, you will get the benefits of all the great things you’ve been doing. You need to deal with that aspect. I think that’s why I kept having these cycles of hair loss. 

Outside of that, the nervous system is key. I don’t know if this individual had already sorted out their nervous system. A lot of people come to me and are still living in fight or flight. Even though they are doing meditation or yoga or are doing things to help with that, they are still living in a stressed state. Meditation and yoga and those types of things can be helpful. 

It’s actually getting comfortable with yourself and having little intervals throughout the day when you can do deep breathing or journaling, really working on yourself and calming your nervous system down. 

I find particularly with hair loss, while that is still happening in your body, it’s harder to get everything back into balance, so your body feels safe again to grow hair. It’s that safety aspect, feeling calm and safe. Anxiety is definitely a symptom I experienced. I see clients experience it as well. 

Unfortunately, it’s not always straightforward. I do think nourishing food, working on your gut health, calming the immune system, doing all the things you love in life, all these things can benefit you. Sometimes, that’s enough. 

If you have tried that, I do think you need to be a bit more specific about the areas you focus on and really do a set protocol around something. See those meaningful changes. 

Dr. Eric:

Sounds great. This was a great conversation. Thank you so much for sharing all that you shared. Where can people who might be interested in working with you or learning more about you visit? 

VJ: 

They can go to my website, www.TheAutoimmunityNutritionist.com. You can go to TheAutoimmuneNutritionClinic.com, too. Over there, you will find a free guide, “The Autoimmunity Recovery Plan.” If you are looking to take your first steps when it comes to improving your autoimmune condition, you can download that. It gives you things you can start including in your life straightaway, things like journaling. There is a green juice on there. There is advice around sleep. There is a food plan you can follow. If you want to get started today, that is a good guide to download and get started with. 

Dr. Eric: 

Also listening to your podcast as well. 

VJ: 

I have a podcast called The Autoimmune Reset. I also have a free group called The Autoimmune Forum, which you can find on Facebook. We have an amazing community over there of people living with autoimmunities and sharing experience and advice. I’d love to have everyone here in that group as well. 

Dr. Eric: 

Thank you so much, VJ. This was a really good conversation. Appreciate you sharing your experience and showing others what they can do to help overcome hair loss. 

VJ: 

Thanks so much for having me.

This episode looks at how dental work might influence thyroid health. I’ll explain what mercury amalgams are, why some people feel better after removing them, and why others do not. We’ll also cover the debate around root canals and whether they can create ongoing immune stress. The focus isn’t on quick fixes but on helping you think through risks and benefits so you can decide what makes the most sense for your healing journey. If you would prefer to listen to the interview you can access it by Clicking Here.

Dr. Eric Osansky: 

Have you ever wondered if something like your dental work—mercury fillings or root canals—might be keeping your thyroid antibodies elevated? It can feel frustrating when you have already worked on diet, stress management, sleep, taking however many supplements, yet your antibodies remain high? 

That is often the point where people start searching for hidden triggers. Dental health is one area that comes up again and again. That’s what we’re going to talk about here. Whether your dental work, things like mercury amalgams or root canals, might be playing a role in keeping your thyroid antibodies elevated. We will look at a few different areas. 

First, I’ll discuss what mercury amalgams actually are and how they can potentially influence the immune system. I will also discuss how potentially root canals can contribute to chronic low-grade infections. Why some practitioners think this can keep the immune system overactive. Third, understanding how these possible triggers fit into the big question so many people face: How do you know when to keep exploring natural approaches and when it may be time to consider other options for addressing your antibodies? 

Before talking about concerns with mercury amalgams and root canals, I want to mention that over the years, I have had many people with mercury amalgams and root canals work with me. While some of these people removed their amalgams and root canals, this certainly hasn’t been the case with everybody. 

The point I am trying to make here is that while poor oral health can prevent some people from healing, it is certainly not impossible to heal if you have mercury amalgams, root canals, or both, and choose not to remove them. It depends on the person.

On the other hand, I have had patients who hit a roadblock until they did address their oral health. With that being said, let’s talk about mercury amalgams. 

Mercury amalgams are also known as silver fillings. They have a silver appearance. But they are a mixture of metals, which consist of probably 50% mercury and a powdered alloy composed of silver, tin, and copper. 

As far as the impact of mercury on the immune system, the release of mercury vapor when chewing or drinking hot liquids could potentially stimulate the immune system. Also, there is evidence that it can affect the thyroid directly. 

It’s not just about the immune system and autoimmunity. Mercury can cause problems in multiple ways. Not too long ago, I discovered that mercury, like many other toxins and toxicants, can address permeability of the gut. We have that triad of autoimmunity: genetics, environmental triggers, and leaky gut. Mercury can cause that leaky gut component, or at least be one factor. There are so many things that can cause a leaky gut.

Even if you’ve had mercury amalgams for many years, like 20-30 years, which is certainly the case with some people, sometimes longer than that, still can be causing problems. Again, not everyone is affected equally. There are some people who live with amalgams for dozens of years, and they do find or at least seem to find maybe it’s affecting their health in the background, and they don’t know it. There are people who have amalgams and don’t have overt health issues. There are others who do notice improvements after removing them safely. I’ll talk more about removing them safely shortly. 

I want to talk about root canals now. I am not going to get into great detail. I can’t say I’m an expert on oral health overall. I do have on my podcast an interview with my biological dentist, Dr. Eric Kempter. I would check out that interview. Maybe you’re seeing a biological dentist or will consider seeing one in the future who will educate you further. Like I said, I’m not a dentist, but I have a decent amount of knowledge on oral health. 

A root canal is removing a nerve but leaving the tooth in place. The concern is that potentially the bacteria remain trapped. Over time, it can create chronic, low-grade inflammation and affect the immune system. 

These days, there is ozone therapy. A lot of dentists are starting to use ozone. Even some conventional dentists or so-called holistic dentists. Just because someone says they’re holistic doesn’t mean they’re biological dentists. If they do root canals, they are not biological dentists. There might be some holistic dentists who say it’s okay to get a root canal because they use ozone, and the ozone will clear out all the bacteria. There is no evidence that it does that. I don’t think there is anything that completely clears out the bacteria. 

I am not saying root canals are always a problem, and you always have to remove them. It’s a good theory. I used IV ozone when I dealt with chronic Lyme. I am definitely not against ozone. My biological dentist uses ozone. As far as it wiping out or eradicating all the bacteria, when getting a root canal, have this conversation with a biological dentist. They will give you a better explanation. 

In any case, root canals are widely considered safe in general dentistry. There are practitioners, notably biological dentists, who think they could be a factor in autoimmune conditions, including Graves’, as well as Hashimoto’s. 

Let’s talk more about mercury. Mercury can impact the immune system but also can impact the thyroid. When it comes to antibodies, there is no guarantee that, if you have one, or even if you have 7-8 amalgams, removing the mercury amalgam is going to lower your antibodies. 

I have seen more cases where people just left in the mercury amalgams and restored their health, and their antibodies normalized. Like I said, not everybody needs to remove their mercury amalgams. I have seen some cases where people’s antibodies didn’t normalize until they got amalgams removed. 

If you do get them removed, you definitely want to make sure you go to a biological dentist, or at least someone who is trained. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a biological dentist. There is the IAOMT, International Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology. They have a training, I think it’s the Smart Training. You don’t have to be a so-called biological dentist to go through their training. You can visit their website, IAOMT.org, and do a search and see who has gone through that training. 

I am pretty sure there are other types of trainings. You want to make sure they take the proper precautions when removing the amalgams. 

Again, I think the evidence of mercury being problematic is pretty strong. There is not a lot of evidence showing that it directly triggers Graves’ or Hashimoto’s, but it definitely can impact the immune system. To me, it does seem clear that it can be a potential autoimmune trigger and affect the thyroid as well as cause permeability of the gut. 

There is no good reason to keep mercury amalgams in your mouth long-term. I know the concern is if you remove it, there is the risk of making things worse. That’s why you want to take the proper precautions. 

Root canals definitely are more controversial. At least in the published research. Not as much evidence when it comes to root canals causing problems when compared to mercury. Biological dentists will provide not published journals because they’re not there, but they will give their perspective and what they have learned. 

It makes sense. I had a root canal a number of years ago. It wasn’t giving me problems, but I got it removed to play it safe. It wasn’t an easy decision because I didn’t want to have an implant. I did end up getting a ceramic implant. Nobody wants an implant. Nobody wants to get a tooth extracted. That is really the only solution I know of. Maybe in the future, there will be another solution when it comes to root canals. 

It wasn’t an easy decision, even with my background, to remove the root canal. I’m glad I did it. Everything went well with the implants. I wish I got the root canal removed sooner. 

After I got it removed, I saw a biological dentist, who recommended to wait three months before getting the implant. I waited closer to a year because I was dreading getting the implant. It wasn’t too bad. I wish I would have done that sooner.

I am not encouraging you to remove your root canal immediately. That is up to you. Trying to encourage you to do more research on your own. 

I will say this. When I mentioned I have had people remove their amalgams, and that seemed to be the key in getting into remission, I haven’t really seen that with root canals. I have had some people remove root canals, hoping that would be a big piece of the puzzle, if not the main trigger. I have never seen any patient of mine where they removed the root canal, and that by itself normalized thyroid antibodies. 

It’s not like I’ve had hundreds of people who I worked with remove root canals. I definitely have had some. Maybe if you speak with a biological dentist, they might have different stories. If you speak with other functional medicine practitioners or go on forums or Facebook groups. The evidence is definitely stronger when it comes to the impact that mercury can have on your immune system and thyroid health when compared to root canals. 

It’s really all about risk versus benefits. When removing multiple amalgams, I’ve had patients who had 6-8 amalgams removed, and it’s pricey. They’re taking certain precautions, so it’s more expensive than getting a regular filling. I’ve only had one thankfully. I think it was $500-$600. I’m in NC, and in some places, it will be more expensive. If it’s $500, and someone has eight of them, that’s $4,000. They usually won’t remove them all at the same time. They will usually do 2-4. Depends on the dentist and the person. 

The point is it can be pricey. I think it’s something where most people are going to be happy that they did it. I’m not saying you need to do it while restoring your health. I’m just saying in the future, let’s say if you have six mercury amalgams, and you are trying to restore your health, ideally it would be great to work with someone while restoring your health. 

Even if you make it your goal to restore your health while not spending thousands of dollars to remove your mercury amalgams, but you still have a plan in place to remove 1-2 a year, within a few years, you will have them removed. That’s better than not removing them at all, is my point. 

Some people certainly remove them quicker. As soon as they speak with someone like me or another functional medicine practitioner. Most people don’t do that. Most people will keep them in and see how they progress, but it’s perfectly fine if you want to consider doing that later in the healing journey. 

Same thing with root canals. If you have one or more, it is more controversial. I think you can make the argument: Do you really need to take them out? I got mine extracted, and I got the implants. The implant is expensive, too. The zirconium implant was a little more than $5,000. One of those removed is expensive enough, but if you have 2-3 root canals, you are looking at $10,000-$15,000. Might be more depending on where you live. Some places might be less. 

Also should mention getting back to evaluating. Is there a way to know if you’re reacting to the mercury? Same thing with root canals. 

I’ll start with the root canal first. There is no great test. They can do the cone beam, the CT scan. That can tell if you’re infected. The technology still needs to be improved when it comes to root canals. 

Most tests that look at mercury, whether it’s hair, urine, or blood, are looking at levels of mercury. Just because you have high levels of mercury doesn’t mean that you’re reacting to the mercury. It’s not good to have high levels of mercury, so if you do, it would be nice to lower those. 

There are immune system tests. One of them is Cyrex Labs’ Array #11. That looks at the immune system reaction not just to mercury but other heavy metals and environmental toxins and toxicants. If you were to do a hair or urine test, and mercury showed up high, and then you did Cyrex Labs’ #11, and it looked great, there was no reactivity. Again, to me, you still probably eventually should get the mercury amalgams removed. Maybe it’s not as urgent. 

If you do that test, and I can’t say I do this test on everyone, it’s another pricey test. I try to prioritize when I do the testing. I am bringing it up here so you’re aware. You could choose to do it if you want to. 

If you show up with high levels of mercury on a test, and then you do the Array #11, and it is showing that you’re reacting to mercury, and it is causing an immune system reaction, then you probably want to get the amalgams removed sooner than later. 

Also should add that testing, urine and hair especially, are not perfect. Blood is different. Blood is looking at acute levels. Urine and hair, you could have mercury built up in the tissue, and it’s not showing up in these tests. That’s why with urine testing, some doctors do pre- and post-provocation testing, where they will give someone provocation agents to take to mobilize the mercury from the tissues. They will do another urine test. There is controversy with those as well. My point is you can’t always rely on the levels. 

We could make the argument that everybody should do an immune reaction test. You have to be careful with that test because if you have lower immunoglobulins, you could test the IGs, but you could get false negatives with the Array #11. 

I would recommend working with a practitioner before doing any of these tests, so you’re not spending your money unnecessarily. 

For the most part, that’s what I wanted to cover. If your antibodies are still high, even after changing your diet, managing your stress, taking numerous supplements, that means that the underlying immune triggers are still active. If nothing changes, you might see some fluctuations, but they are probably not going to gradually decrease and normalize. 

This is usually a point where people with a natural mindset start thinking about treatment options such as radioactive iodine or surgery as the only path forward. Just remember that once you take that step, there is no going back. If you rush into it, you can wonder if there was more you could have done to avoid it. 

Just because you have done some great things for your health, yet haven’t seen a decrease in your thyroid antibodies, this doesn’t mean you have failed or that healing is impossible. It just means that you haven’t found all the answers, and you need a clearer way to look at your labs, triggers, and other factors, so you can make a decision you feel at peace with and not one that is driven by fear or urgency. 

Most people in this position don’t need more random information from the internet. You probably already know about diet changes, stress management, and labs. If not, you can get this information from reading my books and listening to other episodes of this podcast.

 What you really need is a framework, a way to put the pieces together, so you can see whether you have truly explored all the natural options before considering something permanent. That is exactly why I created a Focus master class. 

In this session, I will walk you through situations where a permanent treatment option like thyroid surgery might make sense and where there is more room to explore. A few of the most common triggers I see people miss, even when they feel like they have tried everything, as well as a decision checklist you can bring into your next doctor’s appointment, so you feel more prepared and less pressured. 

The goal isn’t to tell you what to do. It is to give you clarity, calmness, and confidence, so you can make the decision that is right for you, not one you will second guess later. That is a big problem, especially with people with hyperthyroidism and Graves’. 

Radioactive iodine and thyroid surgery are commonly brought up by their endocrinologists. Unfortunately, a lot of people get these treatments when they don’t need to. Some people take a natural approach, and maybe they are not seeing the progress and end up getting these treatments. 

Most people who get these treatments don’t look into natural treatment options. Some people start taking the natural approach, and maybe they have unrealistic expectations. They might be doing some great things, and autoimmunity can be complex. Graves’ can be complex. Hashimoto’s can be complex. Even non-autoimmune hyperthyroid conditions like toxic multinodular goiter can be complex. It’s not quick and easy.

I have had so many people over the years receive radioactive iodine or thyroid surgery and regret their decision. 

Now, without question, there are people who get these procedures, and they don’t regret their decision. Some people definitely do. You don’t have to wait for another appointment or flare-up. This master class is a recorded class. It’s ready for you to watch right now. You will find the link in the show notes. It will walk you through exactly what’s included and how to get started. 

I’d like to thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode. I not only look forward to catching you in the next episode, but I really do hope you take action and check out the master class. You will be so glad that you did. 

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Thank you for listening to the episode. Let’s start out by discussing why oral health is usually overlooked. Simply, most people don’t think of the mouth as being a factor in autoimmune conditions such as Graves’ and Hashimoto’s. If you ask biological dentists, they will definitely talk about the relationship between oral health and autoimmunity, especially dental amalgams. There are other factors, which I’ll talk about shortly. 

When it comes to heavy metals, there are definitely flaws when it comes to heavy metal testing. I discuss the difference between looking at the levels of heavy metals versus immune system reaction. I can’t say I test immune system reaction on all my patients. I’m sure some dentists do testing for that. 

If one has amalgams, it doesn’t mean that you’re reacting to the mercury, even though mercury is a toxin in everybody. From an immune system standpoint, if you do a test like Cyrex Labs’ Array #11, doesn’t mean it will show an immune response. If it does show an immune response, if you were to do that test, you definitely would want to get your amalgams removed, if you have mercury amalgams. If it’s negative, doesn’t mean that you should leave them in forever, but maybe it’s not as urgent to remove them. 

Also wanted to expand more on holistic versus biological dentists. I’m in Matthews, NC, which is in the Charlotte area. Years ago, I saw a holistic dentist because he was convenient. He recommended a root canal in my case and gave me a bill of $12,000, not just for the root canal but other things piling up the charges. He was recommending a root canal, fluoride treatments, which is not what a biological dentist will do. 

The point is that if you’re looking for someone locally, just because they call themselves a holistic doctor doesn’t mean they’re holistic. He was doing some holistic things, but definitely was doing conventional things, which isn’t a bad thing. I’m not saying it’s bad. I’m not a fan of root canals and fluoride, but that’s what most dentists do. 

To me, it’s misleading that he called himself a holistic dentist. Most of the things, I would argue, aren’t holistic. He did a few things holistically, but definitely not a biological dentist. 

If someone recommends root canals, they’re not a biological dentist. If they recommend fluoride treatments, probably not a biological dentist. If you are looking specifically for a biological dentist, visit the IAOMT website, IAOMT.org. 

Finally, I wanted to talk about gum inflammation and thyroid autoimmunity, which I didn’t mention earlier. There is some evidence in the research in some journal articles that they can play a role in autoimmunity. Nothing I am aware of with Graves’, but I think there is a study showing the relationship between gum inflammation and Hashimoto’s. 

Maybe you don’t have any root canals. Maybe you don’t have mercury amalgams. You might have gum inflammation. If you’re going to a dentist on a regular basis, at least once a year, if not twice a year, then they probably would tell you if they are seeing inflammation. 

Years ago, I had a crown that I was reacting to and had a lot of bleeding around the area. It turned out to be a nickel allergy to the crown, which surprisingly two dentists missed. Nickel allergies are pretty common. The first two missed it. The third dentist finally caught it, which a biological dentist, when he mentioned it was a nickel allergy, I didn’t believe him because it seemed so simple. Why wouldn’t the other doctors get it? It’s not that I didn’t believe him. 

I did another test at the time that was a biocompatibility test called the Clifford Test. Unfortunately, they are no longer available, but they were back then. I did the test, and it did confirm I had a nickel allergy. He changed it to a different crown. 

That’s pretty much all I wanted to cover with regards to the relationship of oral health to thyroid conditions and more specifically thyroid autoimmunity. Of course, I hope you found the information I presented to be valuable. Look forward to catching you in the next episode. 

Recently, I interviewed Dr. Lisa Merritt, a functional medicine expert and holistic health educator, shares how seemingly harmless habits can disrupt sleep and accelerate aging. We talk about strategies for calming a racing mind, improving vagal nerve tone, and setting up an environment that supports deep, restorative rest. You’ll also hear how to spot anti-aging fads that waste time and money, and the simple shifts that create lasting benefits for your body and mind. If you would prefer to listen to the interview you can access it by Clicking Here.

Dr. Eric Osansky: 

Hope everyone is having an awesome day. With me, I have Lisa Merritt. We’ll talk about anti-aging traps and quality sleep. Dr. Lisa Merritt is an educator, mentor, and founder of the Merritt Wellness Method and Weddington Chiropractic Wellness Center. Welcome, Dr. Merritt. 

If it’s okay with you, I figure we’d start out by talking about sleep, showing those with hyperthyroidism, hypothyroidism, and anyone else joining us about how to get better quality sleep. Then we can talk about anti-aging. I know sleep plays a big role when it comes to anti-aging. 

Is there anything else you’d like to share about your background? How you got into anti-aging? 

Dr. Lisa Merritt: 

This has been my blood, sweat, and tears my whole life. I will be 65 in November, but I was raised under holistic wellness. I was fortunate to have my dad as a role model. He was also a chiropractor. We had a health food store. Probably my calling was very early in life. 

My senior year was when I worked in a nursing home. They didn’t call them senior living centers. It really invigorated me and created my calling that I had passion for what made people age gracefully. What was the attitude? What were the things that would make me see how people can age, have longevity? At a young age of 16, I said there is something about this that speaks to me, and I wanted to make a difference not only in my life, but that was when I started to know I wanted to be a doctor. 

The aging has been, as I’m also gradually aging, hopefully gracefully, that as a chiropractor, I saw people needing structural help, but I knew there was more going on physically and physiologically that they needed the psychological help, the inflammatory help that people were not healing as well. What were the problems with their repair? That is what led me to be more in the naturopathy, doing acupuncture, studying mindset with biofeedback work from HeartMath. 

It progresses that you have to look at what I call my triangle of health approach. There is the structural, the chemical and the nutritional, and the emotional wellbeing. You can’t leave any one of those sides out. When we see people not troubleshooting the other, you will not have total health. 

We know that sleep is when your body repairs. If you don’t sleep well, you will be in trouble for how you function in the day. That’s why we’re going to go into it a little more with you and everyone here today. 

Dr. Eric: 

Sounds good. 

Dr. Lisa: 

I’ll go into it a little bit more now that we know your rhythm of the day. We talk about adrenal health. We talk about what happens with the hormones in our body. This is a hyperthyroid group and hypothyroid. We know that the body is racing, and there is irritability, and there is heart rate that is out of control with a lot of hyperthyroid. The sympathetic, the system that doesn’t know how to slow down can’t sleep and digest and let the rest of the functions go because the body is revved up all day long. 

As you have taught them so much about dietary and those habits, we know that we have to think about what our minds are doing and how we can regulate our day. Our sleep schedule, even like a baby, I’ve had six babies, and knowing how to help a baby go to sleep is what we need to practice, too. 

You want to have the end of the day start to slow down. A lot of us don’t. We’re watching TV. We are on our computers. We may have stress that we haven’t resolved in the day. The concepts of what are we talking about at the end of the day. We do that even as a baby. Slow down, get music going, get the environment to settle down, dim the lights, create a setting that slows us. Get a nice bath at nighttime. Practice your breathing. Don’t do heavy exercises at night. Yoga, stretching. Settle your day. 

A lot of people go, “Yeah, I guess I need to do that.” It is part of our practice to stay away from caffeine, excess alcohol. You won’t sleep well, and your body won’t repair well if you’re not thinking about what you’re eating at night. Eating too late at night. Don’t have a heavy meal at night. Include your proteins. Those are all things that gradually get us to sleep. 

Most people will say, “I can’t turn my mind off.” There are breathing exercises. There are meditations. Kind of counting sheep to help you sleep. That doesn’t always work if our chemistry is off, too. 

Dr. Eric: 

Being that you’re HeartMath certified, a certified biofeedback practitioner, can you talk about HeartMath and how that might also be beneficial when it comes to sleep? 

Dr. Lisa: 

I am not sure if you have talked to your group about the vagal nerve. It is the 10th cranial nerve. It is called the vagal nerve because it is a vagrant. It is the longest nerve from our brain going into our body. The vagal nerve works with digestion. It works with our thought patterns. It works with the organs in our bodies. 

HeartMath works with the regulation of your heart rate. Our emotions change our heart rate. The demands of our body regulate our heart rate. Blood pressure, the fast and the slow of the body. If you have that adrenaline rush, you know your heart rate picks up.

What HeartMath actually does, it’s a breathing technique, but it is also a visual connection of watching your heart rate in a baseline. What happens when we have thoughts that get out of control. Say it could be trauma or post-traumatic stress. We even say sometimes you can have road rage, and you know what that does to you. 

With HeartMath, it is a program of learning what is your base. Do you have control of the base of what your heart rate is doing? You regulate it by your fingertip, or it can go on your ear. It’s a software that shows how your heart rate is doing. 

The thing I love about it the most is it actually makes you connect with your emotions that you might not always want to talk about. Then you learn to say, “Yeah, look at what my heart rate does when I talk about my mother-in-law,” or something like that, like, “I hate my boss,” and you see your heart rate do that. You learn to say, “Okay, I know how to lower my heart rate by breathing. I know how to lower my heart rate by relaxing my body. I know how to lower my heart rate by these techniques of my mindset control.” You realistically can say “Okay, I get stressed about this,” so you don’t get in a panic attack. You learn how to settle yourself. 

Maybe some of the women out there went through natural childbirth. One of the greatest things in natural childbirth is you learn to control that intense labor pain by breathing and settling your body. It’s an incredible experience to learn. I have had all my children through natural childbirth, and you’re learning to control your breath and the physical pain. Then the fear and overwhelming experience. That’s what we learn in life. 

COVID. I have seen so many patients have incredible anxiety and fear. Now they’re overwhelmed with obsessive thoughts and learning to meditate and do this breathing with regulation of heart rate monitoring. It’s just an incredible tool. 

Dr. Eric: 

It not only can help with sleep but overall health. If someone is anxious, which also can prevent someone from falling asleep. 

Dr. Lisa: 

Absolutely. 

Dr. Eric: 

I am very familiar with HeartMath as well. I am also an advocate. I have the Inner Balance and the emWave2. I use the Inner Balance more. 

Dr. Lisa: 

The cool thing about it is we could practice yoga or tai chi or prayer time. These applications are all tools that we incorporate. When I do acupuncture with my patients, I teach them a breathing technique. I teach them some physical breathing techniques. People breathe like this, and you’re supposed to belly breathe, not overusing these muscles. 

An interesting point about that, especially with thyroid and going back to vagal nerve tone. When we breathe too much with our upper body, and when we have a lot of thyroid issues, and we’re shutting down a flow, our lymph system gets blocked, our muscular system is viced. Our vagal nerve connection is actually on the carotid arteries. It also is locked. Chiropractically and even therapeutically, our necks may be tight. Our vertebrae range of motion is resistant. All of that connects. 

If we just think about thyroid, thyroid, thyroid without breathing, without the vagal nerve massage, belly breathing, all these things are part of what we need to look at that segment of our body. That is where it always comes together with people who can’t swallow. That’s also part of this tension. There is that structural, chemical, emotional connection for just settling your body at night. 

A lot of people stay in the fetal position for sleep. Learning to relax the neck muscles with a good pillow. Practicing the breathing. You’ll start to sleep better. Learning to have the mindset with the thought patterns. 

Dr. Eric: 

Awesome. You said you were possibly going to share some vagal exercises. 

Dr. Lisa: 

I know you know a lot about the vagal nerve tone. Vagal nerve tone exercises are really fascinating. They said that even though monks had very good vagal nerve tone, it helps with cognitive functions and peace of mind. It’s because they chant and sing and breathe and meditate. Those are all vagal nerve tone exercises.

The vagal nerve tone exercise that is actually on your throat, you have to do it laying down because you can make yourself pass out. Remember this. While I show you, I am not going to really do it on myself because I don’t want to pass out. 

But you want to find that deeper area on each side of your throat where you will feel your pulse, which is your artery. As you’re laying down, you want to keep your fingers three level. Don’t have your fingernails going too deep. I keep my nails short. Some people like to massage. Some people like to really apply deep pressure. 

This is for 10 seconds. 30 seconds. I like to do maybe 10 seconds. Some people have different thoughts. You do it on each side for 10 seconds, three times. You then will be able to massage, and you go to the other side. You will do that three times. Don’t do it together. That will start the sensory nerve pickup for that vagal nerve to wake up.  

Dr. Eric: 

Is there a better time of day to do it? If someone is trying to kick in that parasympathetic nervous system and try to get better sleep, should they do it right before they go to sleep? 

Dr. Lisa: 

If you’re doing it laying down, it’s great to do it maybe twice a day, if not three times a day. Twice a day would be when you’re going to sleep and when you wake up in the morning. I like people to practice their breathing meditation techniques or even HeartMath. Say you’re going out at night, or you’re going to have dinner. It could be 3pm or 4pm, and it will give you that extra pickup to tone that vagal nerve by doing that exercise. 

Another crazy one I do every morning. I don’t know how many people out there would raise their hand, but the cold shower. I brace myself every morning. I get my hot shower, and then I turn off the hot water. 

Dr. Eric: 

Same here. I do that, too. 

Dr. Lisa: 

I let the cold water go all over me. I count it. I brace myself to turn around and get my back. When I wash my hair, I really get that cold water. 

Dr. Eric: 

Sounds like we have the same routine. 

Dr. Lisa: 

I know that’s why- What are they called, the polar bear people who jump in the ice? There are a lot of studies about brain function, energy function. It turns that vagal nerve. It’s a form of discipline. You say, “Okay, it’s in my regimen.” I do it and go, “Okay, I am ready for my day. I am certainly woken up by that.” 

Dr. Eric: 

How about supplements? I know people tend to go to supplements when it comes to sleeping. Melatonin and GABA. What are your thoughts? Is there a time and place for supplementation or even medication when it comes to getting better sleep? 

Dr. Lisa: 

Really good question. A lot of people think melatonin is always the answer. It is not always the answer. 

In my opinion, we need to check that cortisol level, which is an inverse relationship with melatonin. There are some people who do not respond well with melatonin. It actually does the opposite. A lot of the autoimmune people could have that opposite. 

I am also not always a person who believes in an end product. I like to get the body to create as much of it as it can before I say to take a melatonin or other kind of hormones. To get that cortisol and inflammation down, we know with our thyroid patients, the inflammation is just always an issue for them. The melatonin doesn’t respond because at nighttime, cortisol should go down, and melatonin should go up. If you’re not in that regulation, then your body is fighting using melatonin. Do you agree with that? 

Dr. Eric:

I would agree. What you mentioned earlier about your environment, making sure you dim the lights at night, that your room is completely dark when going to sleep. Those things could help greatly in your production of melatonin. 

Dr. Lisa: 

Yes. Our body is in the major detoxification and repair time at night. Taking the wrong supplements or having the wrong diet, and you’re not detoxifying at night. If your blood sugar is not balanced, then you’re also not sleeping well at night. We know our thyroid patients are not detoxifying and synthesizing their hormones the same. Doing the anti-inflammatory and detoxification is going to actually help you sleep better at night. You won’t awaken so much.

The worst thing I could- It’s so hard to get people off of sleep medications because Ambien is just full dependent. The body has gotten so used to it. The more your body gets used to something on a chemical synthetic level, it doesn’t know how to respond and work on its own because you keep on switching and trying to demand it to go to sleep. It doesn’t know how to reset. 

The Ambien patients are never getting REM. REM sleep is when we are still and calm, and our body is in deeper time to repair. Our body is in deeper time to also help the brain heal and allows the memory and cognitive functions occur. 

I like magnesium. I test magnesium. Dr. Osansky knows that when your magnesium levels go below 2.0 of your blood chemistry, it has been like that for a while. We want that magnesium to be in the system. I like layering in. I like chamomile teas if you are not allergic to chamomile. I do think CBD has helped many people sleep better. Those calming teas are very helpful and hydration. 

Dr. Eric: 

How about essential oils? 

Dr. Lisa: 

Yes, I love essential oils. Valerian oils, calming oils. 

Dr. Eric: 

Lavender? 

Dr. Lisa: 

I use Young Living. I like the Stress Away. Frankincense has helped, which is also boswellia. That has helped. The proper B vitamins. 

Our adaptogenic process is very good to get the body to know how to help that time to get the adrenals to shut down and give you cortisol for the nighttime balance. Blood sugar is super important. People who can’t go to sleep and have a hard time going to sleep, we know that that can be more on the hyperglycemic. 

Insulin resistance. Having a little bit of protein will help you keep those carbs lower. No sugar. No synthetic sugar. People say it’s no sugar. I’m like, no, your brain thinks it got sugar. Not a good idea. People who wake up in the night, it can be a hypoadrenal response. You may need a little protein before bedtime to help you not wake up in the night. That brain needs fuel. 

I don’t know if any of your people try a glass of water with the gray bead. Maple syrup sometimes helps them go back to sleep. Those are some things to pick up the blood sugar a little bit in the middle of the night. 

Dr. Eric: 

Great tips. I want to make sure we have time to dive into those anti-aging traps that I told everybody that we’re going to have you discuss. What are some of the anti-aging traps that people could avoid? When they turn 64/65, they can look just as great as you do.  

Dr. Lisa: 

Thank you. I have been writing my courses and building my vision of how I’m going to speak to people more and more about anti-aging. The fear of aging is the biggest thing I want people to battle. If you are so afraid of aging, you’re not living. 

You need to be smart. People start to freak out with aging when it starts to get to be too late. We need to think about how our body is at 30. I love teaching the young people. Don’t wait until your body starts to shut down. Learn the signs it’s giving you. 

I also want people to embrace living and balance their living. Live and love and laugh and humor and try not to stay so much so that you can’t focus on the special things. Don’t wait for bucket lists to be too late. 

My grandmother wrote once that we work so hard, and we are not thinking about what are we doing today to enjoy and embrace it. You don’t want to be foolish and say, “I’m living for today,” but you do want to savor each moment and think of your day and the good things. Even 10 minutes of gratitude. 

We know laughter and peace of mind heals our immune system. It makes our bodies healthier. It helps our red blood cells invigorate. I love hearing older people tell you to resolve your issues. Tell people you love them. Don’t wait until so late in life with grudges. Let go of things and resolve them. Share your thoughts today. 

Aging is not just being an ostrich. What am I doing today? Do I have good instincts? We are always trying to teach our patients about healthy diet and eating vegetables and getting exercise. If we don’t keep that in check, you want good instincts. Am I moving my body? Am I sitting too long? Am I eating colors of the rainbow? Am I eating healthy? Do I have apathy that I don’t want to cook? I don’t have energy to cook. There are so many people who don’t know how to cook. It’s not that hard. You don’t have to be that fancy. It’s just basically start getting groceries and pantry items. 

You learn from your ancestries. The American diet is SAD, the Standard American Diet. What are people eating that their ancestries ate? Go back to the Mediterranean or Asian diet or the Middle Eastern diet. What was it that they ate that kept them healthy? There was a reason. It was because it was fresh. There was a healthy oil. The healthier grains. Wasn’t processed. Those chemicals and preservatives are now in it. We need to try to get back to those roots. 

Dr. Eric: 

It sounds like a lot of the basics need to be incorporated. For those expecting you to talk about DHEA and resveratrol and other anti-aging agents, I’m not saying there is not a time and place. 

I think there is also a lot of hype with some of the natural agents that promote anti-aging. You can take all the resveratrol you want. You don’t want to take a lot of DHEA because it’s a hormone. You want to eat well, manage your stress, and get proper sleep. 

You have some great tips with the gratitude journal. The attitude that someone has on life can play a big role when it comes to slowing down the aging process. 

Dr. Lisa: 

I take supplements, but that’s what we want to remember. They are called supplements. The nutraceuticals that are given to us now are not just vitamins. They’re not just minerals. The research that I have seen over the last 30 years now has so many wonderful cofactors of adding these herbs or putting this together or adding hydrochloric acid so you absorb iron better, or adding something that works together so that you absorb it better is so much better than just one little thing at a time, so you don’t have to take a multitude list of tons of bottles. 

I have a shake every morning. I add turmeric to it. Vitamin D. We won’t get everything from the food we eat because our environment has ruined the quality. We know that broccoli doesn’t have the same amount of Vitamin C as it used to 20 years ago unfortunately because of pollutants. If we all grew organic, and we all had our own garden. Of course, shop local. It’s better. We all know how great something freshly picked off your own tree or from your own garden is amazingly different. A tomato or a peach. My sister would bring mangoes. We know how delicious they are when they are so ripe. Of course, there are so many more vitamins and minerals in them. 

We do have to supplement. It used to be the conventional doctors used to say, “You don’t need to take vitamins. Just eat your diet.” Now we know, people get tested for Vitamin D. People want extra B12. We need our probiotics. We are not getting it like we used to. 

We have to listen to the signs of our body. We have to look at how the health of our skin is, looking at our nails, looking at our tongue, looking at how well are we digesting food. Do we have heartburn? Do we have bloating? Do we have gas? Do we move our bowels every day? Those are signs that I’m not doing it. 

If you’re not going to the bathroom every day, your body is holding toxins. If you are getting heartburn, you are not absorbing nutrients. If you have sinus issues all the time, your body is not flowing. If you get headaches every day, your body is sending you a message. Listening and not hiding it/masking it with medicines is so important. 

Dr. Eric: 

This all relates to the triangle you mentioned. For example, headaches. That could be chemical, structural. It could relate to any of the three aspects of the triangle, correct? 

Dr. Lisa: 

That’s right. As far as anti-aging, I love when I have a patient who comes in. They could be 80 years old, and they are not on any medications. They’re not hiding their symptoms. It’s because you listen to their lifestyle. You listen to some of their habits. They have good instincts. They tell you what they eat. Even if they’re home alone, they cook, and they eat fresh. They make sure that they are planning their meals. They get out and walk. They still stimulate their brains.

The people who are aging gracefully are the ones who are still proactive. They have been proactive. It’s just natural in that it’s not just genetics. Our genetics will help us live longer, but our lifestyle is what keeps us living longer. Healthy lifestyle is that triangle approach. 

The ones who are on so many medications, whether they are on one medication, and then they are on another because they may have a side effect. Then they are on another because of side effects. Then they are on eight different medications. You can just tell they don’t have energy. They don’t feel good. They don’t sleep well. They have body aches and pains. They are not moving. They are overweight, or they are not sharp. They are not happy either. 

The ones who are aging gracefully. When I told you I was a young girl going to this nursing home, I had the job of going into “This is what they titled me. I was an assistant recreational director.” They didn’t want to play bingo or go watch movies. I had to go talk to the people who didn’t want to leave their rooms, or they couldn’t leave their rooms. I saw attitude, not just illness. The ones who were lonely, the ones who had no one come visit them. 

I saw the ones who everybody wanted to visit them. Maybe they were sicker. They still told jokes. It was amazing to say, “I want to be like that.” I hope I will. That cute little old lady who still is dancing. You want to be around those kinds of people. You don’t want to be around negative people. You want to be around people. That’s why you and I like to get together. You want to be around people who are magnifying and who simulate your brain and who are positive and not toxic in your life. 

Dr. Eric: 

Definitely agree with that. I want to talk about exercise. Does it make a difference what type of exercise? A lot of people are promoting high intensity interval training these days. Then there is regular cardiovascular exercise, general walking, weight bearing exercise. Do you recommend a combination of everything? 

Dr. Lisa: 

Good question. Of course, it all depends on the person. The problem is that things get to be a fad. We know there are fad diets, fad exercises, fad activities. The media and good advertising will just make you feel like you have to be this, the hottest thing that’s out there. 

We have to be careful. You have to listen to your body. There are times where I will have patients who I can tell they are the slow movers, and I need to get them to move a little more. 

There could be the person who is the go, go, go. They get on a treadmill and don’t stop. Guess what I ask them? “Tell me, do you ever just stretch? Would you ever consider yoga?” I could already see the looks. “I knew you were going to ask me that.” 

From there, I talk to the people who will say, “No, I hate yoga,” or “I can’t stand people who do tai chi. It’s too slow.” I know they need that. Then there are those who go too slow. I’ll say, “Do you ever try to put that slow walk into a faster walk and move your body?” “Oh no, I never do that. That’s too much for me.” Then you know you have to pump it a little bit more. Those are just different people who have to learn the balance and pacing.

Then we have muscularskeletal issues that maybe people will say, “I can’t do it because of my knees.” Well, you could swim. You could do other things. There is no excuse of not getting movement. 

Then there are those who would tell me, “I don’t want to exercise because I work too much. I don’t have time.” Setting time for exercise is very important. 

If you have a lot of muscle aches, we know you have to remove why are you getting muscle spasms? Could it be some of the thyroid problems? Could it be some of the issues of posture? The do’s and why’s of people’s lives are so important. Does that answer your question? 

Dr. Eric: 

Yes, it does. What are your thoughts on fasting? There has been research moreso through animal studies on caloric restriction and intermittent fasting. A lot of people, including myself, do intermittent fasting. When you’re eating, you want to eat whole, healthy foods. Try to eat organic whenever possible. How about going longer periods of time, like 14-16-18 hours without eating? 

Dr. Lisa: 

There are times where we may not feel like we’re hungry, and the body is telling you it doesn’t have to eat as much. We do want to listen to that. Eric, you and I have talked about it enough, but there are debates about if the adrenal glands can handle intermittent fasting. 

Dr. Eric: 

Good point. 

Dr. Lisa: 

Some can’t do that. It’s just like any other kind of fasting. You don’t just want to shut your body down if it doesn’t have the ability to have that resource to provide that repair time because it’s a shock. People do intermittent fasting because they knock out calories. They have to do it the right way. 

I think not eating dinner too late and having a little bit of a breakfast, I think it’s still important. We do call it break-fast. I like the old saying of having the bigger Mediterranean diet, the bigger lunch. It’s healthier on our body. An easier dinner. But I don’t think everybody is always the greatest for intermittent fasting. 

Dr. Eric: 

I agree. Most of my patients, I don’t recommend intermittent fasting for the reason you mentioned. A lot of people have compromised adrenals. Of course, if someone has hypoglycemia or even my hyperthyroid patients. When I dealt with Graves’, I lost 42 pounds. At that time, I was not looking into intermittent fasting. 

I was bringing it up because when it comes to anti-aging in the literature, there is some evidence with caloric restriction, fasting, and aging. If you’re in a healthier state, maybe if you’re still trying to restore the health of your adrenals, if you have blood sugar imbalances, possibly not. 

Dr. Lisa: 

It’s just like any other kind of fasting. We talk about putting our patients on a cleanse or detox. I have found that it’s very important to educate about prefasting and post-fasting. You don’t want to get your body to say, “Well, I’m fasting tomorrow, so let me have this giant spaghetti meal, or let’s go to the ice cream store tonight because I’m fasting tomorrow.” Or “I’m ending this fast, so I can’t wait to do everything I hadn’t done all month.” It’s that prep before and after. 

If you’re always really balanced, you don’t have to do a lot of crazy stuff. You should know that you can enjoy a great Thanksgiving dinner. You can enjoy a birthday party. It’s that moderation, knowing when you should or shouldn’t, and not get overwhelmed with it. A lot of patients who were trying to lose weight, they go through that time of, “I blew my diet. I might as well forget it.” They don’t forgive themselves and get back on track. 

It goes through that mindset thing I was talking about today. We can’t do a detox properly if you don’t prep right. You can’t undetox if you don’t. We learn in the long run what you should be doing all the time. 

I had a patient who told me, “I do your detox every year you bring it up.” Why can’t you just keep it balanced it all the time? 90-95%, just be healthy. What is it that you want? What is it that makes you want the junk food so bad? What is it that makes you slide that you can’t? Why can’t you have a balanced diet? 

I don’t get it. My instinct is I want to have a healthy meal, even if I am quickly grabbing something. My healthy meal would be taking a piece of turkey and carrot and celery. That’s what I’ll have. It won’t be chips. It won’t be a cookie. Leftovers are a healthy meal. I eat some leftover green beans and things like that. What are we reaching for? Instead of saying, “I haven’t eaten. Let me grab a Coca-Cola.” It’s not my instinct. 

Dr. Eric: 

I get it. I agree. Before we answer some questions, because it looks like there are a bunch of questions, is there anything else you’d like to mention when it comes to either sleep or anti-aging or both? 

Dr. Lisa: 

I was doing a lot of sleep study. I was involved in a group for a while. Before I said my niche was about anti-aging. I realized that sleep problems are very dark. It’s a very dismal world. The people who suffer from sleep hide it, and they don’t tell people. I saw the mannerisms of it. 

I had such compassion about that world of people not talking about why they will do anything to sleep better. It’s almost like the addiction of “I have to sleep” because people who are deficit of sleep do go crazy. You can’t think anymore. Your mood won’t be balanced. 

It’s very important to keep a journal about your day. Journaling is for thinking about the why’s of why you’re not sleeping. You’re troubleshooting. Did I exercise? What happened in my thought process? What did I eat? If you don’t sleep, you’re going to age. 

If you don’t give your body the patterns of sleeping, of regular sleep schedule. I basically wake up the same time every day. We want the same sleep schedule. Everybody once in a while stays up real late. But sleeping in and getting your clock off, it’s just like I said with a baby. If you want to teach a baby good sleep, you have to have good schedules for them. They will get off-kilter, and our bodies are the same way no matter what age. If you’re 30, 50, 80. If you’re not sleeping, like you would on a regular basis. You want to try to have that same schedule. 

There are people who say, “I don’t even try to start about thinking about going to sleep until 11pm.” You’re keeping that TV on for that favorite show or whatever routine you’re doing. I really advise you to try to shut down your life around that time and get your schedule regular as best you can. 

Dr. Eric: 

Great advice. Before we jump into questions, people can find you at your practice website. 

Dr. Lisa: 

Yes, it’s WeddingtonWellness.com. 

Dr. Eric: 

I know the practice. I just drive there because I’m in Charlotte, too. If you need an awesome chiropractor- 

Dr. Lisa: 

We do acupuncture. Dr. Osansky does the chemical side of things. Let him work with you on your blood chemistry, your testing. Let him keep on teaching you because we meet up as colleagues and friends, and we have very like-minded thoughts and protocols. My brick and mortar setting is there for you if you want to come and see me in Charlotte. 

Dr. Eric: 

Wonderful. Your Facebook group is Fearless Aging. 

Dr. Lisa: 

Yes. It is primarily a women’s group. I am letting women who are 30 in my group because I don’t want them to freak out with their first wrinkle or gray hair. I don’t want them to start thinking they need to do Botox and all those crazy expensive things on their skin. 

I wash my face with soap. I use a very mild soap that has got oil and clay and natural things. I don’t use fancy lotions. I hydrate. I eat a lot of olive oil. I love my fish. I take fish oils. Your skin and eyes and hearing and teeth. There are times where I think I need to get rid of my wrinkles. I want the smile wrinkles. People just need to get back to some of the basics again. 

Dr. Eric: 

Agreed. Let’s see what the questions are. This first one relates to sleep. Daryl has Graves’, blood test normal, can’t sleep all night. Racing heart. What should we do? “Also, my digestive system is going. Diarrhea every day. Doesn’t make any sense. 

I’d like to hear your thoughts. It sounds like digestion, maybe a comprehensive stool panel. There could be other things going on. Even SIBO can present with diarrhea. 

Dr. Lisa: 

Like we talked about, the diarrhea could be a gut infection. It could be that Graves’ just making your sympathetic system on go. It could be that you may need to have those gut repairs to get the stool. If you do have any dysbiosis, which is an imbalance of your good bacteria versus the bad bacteria. You might have a need for probiotics and repairing the gut. 

Diarrhea is a very- I don’t know if you are looking at your diet of what you’re eating. Are you having caffeine? Are you having any help with your Graves’? Talking to Dr. Osansky is very important for you to get some ideas of how your body- I don’t know if any of the pointers I gave you on what you’re doing at night and your breathing practices, but definitely get your digestive system checked. Definitely see if your nervous system. Acupuncture helps with that. The vagal nerve tone exercises. The meditations. The brain health. Your brain motility may just be overactive as well. 

Dr. Eric: 

Agreed. Even though you have Graves’, your blood test is normal. I assume your thyroid hormone levels are looking good. That’s probably not what’s keeping you up at night. Also, parasites potentially. There are a lot of things that could cause diarrhea. 

When you mentioned problems with sleeping, sometimes infections can cause problems with sleep, heart racing. I dealt with chronic Lyme, so I had some of those symptoms, not the diarrhea. I’m not saying you have Lyme, but parasites or possibly another type of infection. 

Dr. Lisa: 

A lot of people think their blood tests are normal. We talk about the functional ranges versus the conventional lab ranges. It’s amazing how many people say they said I’m normal. They went to a functional medicine doctor, like us, and we look at so many more things that could be a part of the pattern or a warning sign that is on those ranges that are not quite viewed as what we would say is normal. You really do need a functional medicine doctor to look at the ranges that are normal. Outside of even just the thyroid being normal. We want to look at these other lab tests that might give us more indications of what’s happening. Even your adrenal functions. Having Graves’ and other autoimmunities, we could be seeing this as part of it for you. 

Dr. Eric: 

Yep, agreed. Someone thanked me for having Dr. Lisa here. I’m thrilled she’s here. Daryl wants to know if we will have this forever or if it will go away.  

Dr. Lisa: 

Daryl, I know you’re feeling very dismal about it. Your diarrhea, you are not getting nutrients, and you’re malabsorbing. We have to look and see about that gut infection because the whole thing with digestion is either are you absorbing nutrients, or are you holding toxins? If you are malabsorbing nutrients, all your body is degenerate. Getting control of the diarrhea is very important. 

Dr. Eric: 

Agreed. How do we learn more about all this? Do you have anything on your website or any other resources if there are men who are looking? 

Dr. Lisa: 

They can work with me. My website is the avenue for those who want my nutritional, chemical, emotional approach. I do see people virtually. I’d be happy to do that. With respect to my friend, Dr. Eric, he does have things that can give you more insight as to your chemical and nutritional needs. 

Dr. Eric: 

What was the name of the vagal exercise? 

Dr. Lisa: 

You can Google “vagal nerve tone exercises.” It will talk about the vagal nerve massage. In my vagal nerve tone courses, they will talk about different pressures. When I was taking another course, because I do some reflex work with the MMRI program, they talk about vagal nerve tone. Everybody has a couple different nuances of how you do vagal nerve tone. 

Like I said, do not do it standing up. The massage can either be a total pressure, and you do it three times. It could also be a massage itself. I found many times with my thyroid patients that they do have a blockage on one side. Definitely sensitivity on one side more. That is almost the side that needs more stimulus. That is more dead and needs stimulus. 

I have an article that I wrote about vagal nerve tone exercises. I can share that for the group. 

Dr. Eric: 

That would be wonderful. You’re a member of the group, too; you can post it. 

Dr. Lisa: 

I even like Stephen Porges’ work. He did The Polyvagal Theory, which is more than vagal nerve tone. It was a very impressive book about how much learning disabilities and autism and cognitive and Alzheimer’s are tied together with this disconnected brain to the rest of the body. The Polyvagal Theory is a book that I would recommend. 

Dr. Eric: 

Great. 

Dr. Lisa: 

That’s why I was saying that about chanting and humming. Those are fine and happy things to do. They say when you go driving down your car, you should be singing really loud. There is vibrational music that also increases vagal nerve tone. These are all things that connect to our brain. I could go in so many different directions. Color therapies. Frequencies in our body. 

Dr. Eric: 

Singing loud, not just humming, stimulates the vagus nerve. Vigorous gargling. Coffee enemas. 

Dr. Lisa: 

Singing in the shower really loud. Cold water. You can accomplish a lot at that whole time. 

Dr. Eric: 

I think this is a response to Daryl. Another user is suggesting it could be SIBO or SIFO. It’s possible. That’s where it gets challenging. With diarrhea, it could be a number of different factors. 

Dr. Lisa: 

Daryl, SIBO is very difficult. It does require sometimes a medication. It does not always remedy just with an herbal therapy. I don’t know if Dr. Osansky agrees with that. You want to get those patients back to a normal diet as much as possible because it eliminates so many healthy foods. You do need to be tested for SIBO. 

One of the big SIBO signs is after you eat, your stomach blows up like a big beach ball. It’s not just a little bloating; it’s a helium balloon blowup. Right? That’s what you would say is one of the good signs? 

Dr. Eric: 

Everybody is different. Not everybody will present with that. I do agree that some people need to take rifaximin or xifaxan. It really depends. With diarrhea, it’s usually more hydrogen dominant. There is methane dominant SIBO and hydrogen dominant. Usually, with diarrhea, it’s more hydrogen dominant, which is not easy to treat, but when compared to methane dominant, if someone were to take an antibiotic approach, usually they need to take two, rifaximin and maybe something like neomycin. It really depends. 

I do like to start people with an herbal approach. One reason is because if they can’t get the rifaximin covered by insurance, it is very expensive. Besides that, with my background, I try to do natural whenever possible. 

Sometimes, you’re right. The herbs don’t work; they’re not effective. 

Dr. Lisa: 

Get tested, and do that breath test. It’s not just found so easy. Even H-pylori is not always found by blood. You have to get a good stool test. I like the three-day sample. I don’t know about you, Dr. Osansky. If you do stool testing and get a three-day sample. What do you like to do? 

Dr. Eric: 

When I was using Genovva Diagnostics and Doctor’s Data, I used to do the three-day samples compared to the one-day sample. More recently, I have been using the GI Map from Diagnostic Solutions. If there is the option of doing one day versus three days, usually, I think with Genovva and Doctor’s Data, I think it’s the same price if you do three samples compared to one. Even if you have to pay a little bit more, there probably is more worth. That’s the downside of stool testing: false negatives are common. 

Dr. Lisa: 

Even some blood testing can be false negatives. The breath is a good test to get that will define it. 

Dr. Eric: 

It’s not perfect either, but there is no perfect test. I do like the breath test. Otherwise, you’re just guessing. If it’s negative. 

Someone mentioned SIFO. That can get challenging because that will present as being positive if someone is doing a SIBO test. With SIFO, there is no great diagnostic test. If you are suspecting SIBO, it’s a good idea to do a breath test. If it’s positive, it’s worth treating. If it’s not, you might have to dig a little deeper.

A few people mentioning nobody with Graves’ needs to fast. I will agree. But I will say the majority of people with Graves’ or hyperthyroidism are losing weight. Some people do gain weight. That being said, I still wouldn’t say to fast. 

Even if someone has Hashimoto’s, as Dr. Lisa was saying, a lot of people have compromised adrenals. If you’re going to consider intermittent fasting at all, you would want to improve the health of the adrenals. If you have blood sugar issues, especially hypoglycemia than hyperglycemia, that is another reason why you wouldn’t want to consider intermittent fasting or any type of fasting. 

Another question from Daryl: “When I go to the bathroom with a bowel movement, every morning, my nose runs like a faucet. Any idea?” I do not. I don’t know if you have any suggestions. 

Dr. Lisa: 

In Chinese medicine, the large intestine and mucus membranes are the same. If you want to help your large intestine, you help sinuses. This could be a little connection for you. This mucus is trying to release from your body. I don’t want to get into too much detail with you about your diarrhea, but maybe the mucus here. It could be that sympathetic response of the body trying to rid and letting the poisons out of your body. 

If you haven’t gotten a good functional medicine doctor helping you, Daryl, a lot of your questions sound like you need somebody to dive in a little deeper for you particularly. 

Dr. Eric: 

Yeah, we are both going to be biased because we are functional medicine practitioners. There is a lot you can do on your own with diet, stress management, vagus nerve exercises, and keeping active. There is definitely a time and place for working with someone 1:1. I agree. 

Let’s make this the last question. We have been going well over an hour here. “Wondering about Graves’. My heart races very high when in activity. Takes time to get back to normal. I stopped exercising since I’m not sure if it’s good.” That’s one thing with Graves’. I would be cautious. 

Like Dr. Lisa was mentioning, there are people who go too slow, and there are people who overtrain. When you have an elevated heart rate with Graves’, you want to be especially cautious when it comes to doing any type of cardiovascular exercise. I would say most people who do light walking, light weight bearing exercise. A lot of people, even just jogging, that’s not high intensity interval training, but still, some people, it’s probably a good idea to take a break from running. 

Dr. Lisa: 

What time of day? If that person is exercising late at night, especially with Graves’, your body can’t shut down that fast. I Know it’s hard to think about a better time of day for you to exercise. Maybe that might make a difference for you to feel like your body settles at night to heal and rest and get into a better rhythm for your sleep and body to heal. 

Same thing goes. Maybe some of those vagal nerve tone things and learning heart rate might be an exercise that is part of the practice that you may need. 

There is not one answer for everything. We all want to have one answer. We all wish that there could be that miracle answer. Sometimes, that one answer is the answer. 

I had a patient who had pancreatic cancer and had part of her pancreas removed. I was a young doctor, and I thought, oh my gosh, this is going to be a really hard case for me. This was 35 years ago or so. I thought, okay, I am going to do my best. I gave this patient a phone call and thought t was going to be one of my hardest. It turned out to be one of the best. I gave her some pancreatic enzymes. She didn’t need my help for many years until she went into menopause. I always thought to myself, well, that was an amazing run. She responded differently. 

Sometimes, we may have a migraine patient who is very detailed, very involved, and a lot of things you wish you could just snap it and help them. There are more layers to unravel.

We are doctors who have to find a protocol. Sometimes, we nip it in the bud. We definitely have our priorities of what we decide is the first step, second step, what phase is best for that person. Just like any kind of thing, we have an educated trial and error. We don’t know what we want to do. There are different nuances that are involved that have to have us know what step to take, like with the gentlemen about the diarrhea. There are a lot of little things that we already were thinking, but we don’t know this or that. We haven’t met you; we haven’t seen other things. 

You want a doctor who is passionate with their work, dedicated to their work, who is a curious doctor. I would definitely say Dr. Osansky, and hopefully I would say I’m a humble doctor. I am always looking at finding the answers. 

I want to say that I don’t always get to help everybody, but my integrity and my passion and finding the answers. In functional medicine, definitely gives you a lot more avenues. So many more avenues. We are not just going to do surgery or this medicine. There are so many little tangents that people are hungry for. People are wanting more answers. We as doctors in our field of natural medicine, drugs and surgery are last. You want to get to it before it gets so bad. 

All of you out there, we want to inspire you to listen to your body. Get somebody who is an extra brain. Obviously, Daryl, you have great knowledge. Get an extra brain from somebody like Dr. Osansky and I. You need that extra brain. We don’t need that extra brain. All of us do. Get the answers for yourself. 

Dr. Eric: 

This is a follow-up from another person who is doing meditation and acupuncture, which are helping. You are very welcome, Daryl, who thanked us both. We appreciate everyone asking questions. Thanks for attending. Thank you, Dr. Lisa, for sharing and going over time. I appreciate you sticking around to answer questions. I know you have a busy schedule. We all appreciate it. 

Dr. Lisa: 

I’ll be happy to come back on any time you want. I know you and I love to talk. 

Dr. Eric: 

We have a good time when we talk. I’m going to wrap this up and hope everyone has a great weekend ahead. I hope, Dr. Lisa, you have a great weekend. Look forward to doing lunch with you again. 

Dr. Lisa: 

All right, take care, everyone. Bye.

This episode lays out a foundational overview of foods that are best avoided when healing from hyperthyroidism or Graves’ disease. It cover the “big ones” like gluten, dairy, refined sugar, alcohol, and grains, as well as the less obvious culprits. It also explains the reasoning behind these recommendations, including gut permeability, immune reactivity, and long-term thyroid stability. If you would prefer to listen to the interview you can access it by Clicking Here.

Keep in mind, everyone is different, and there is no single diet that fits everyone perfectly. In addition, different practitioners will have different recommendations with regard to diet. They will have different recommendations as to what you should eat and what you should avoid. 

Another point I want to bring up has to do with food sensitivity tests. Over the years, I have had a lot of people ask, “Can’t I just do a food sensitivity test to determine what foods I can eat and what foods I should avoid?” The problem with food sensitivity testing is they are not accurate. I am not saying there is not a time and place for them. Some tests are better than others. Still, false positives and false negatives are possible. 

Also, it’s not just about reacting to the food. That’s part of it. For example, we’ll definitely talk about gluten. With gluten, even if you were to do a food sensitivity panel and tested negative for gluten, that doesn’t mean it can’t have negative consequences on the gut. It can still increase permeability of the gut, which means it could cause a leaky gut. You would still want to avoid gluten, even if it tested negative on a food sensitivity test. Same is true with some other foods as well. 

Also, the obvious foods that you should avoid. You all know you should not eat fast food. There are too many to mention, but eating things like French fries, candy, soda, and other junk food. Those are obviously foods we all should avoid, not just people with hyperthyroidism. 

Finally, my book The Hyperthyroid Healing Diet. If you haven’t read that book, I will give a good amount of information here, but you might want to consider reading or listening to the book. If you purchase the book, you can access hyperthyroid healing diet checklists. There are yes and no checklists. There is not just one single diet. There are a few different diet options. 

That being said, let’s talk about foods that you should avoid while healing from hyperthyroidism. Let’s start off with gluten. Anything with gluten, this is the most obvious one we are getting out of the way. An example is bread. We are talking about the non-gluten-free versions of bread and pasta. A lot of other foods have gluten. Unless it’s a whole, healthy food, or if it’s something packaged, but it doesn’t say gluten-free, then it very well might have gluten. Even if it says gluten-free, Certified Gluten Free is even better.

If you are eating whole, healthy foods; vegetables; fruit; if you’re not vegan/vegetarian, meat. We will talk about some other controversial foods, like eggs. Should you avoid eggs while healing? My answer is not everyone with hyperthyroidism should avoid eggs. I’ll get that out of the way. 

Gluten, you definitely want to avoid while healing. We’ll talk about whether or not you can introduce it after you’ve healed later. Some might wonder if you can just test for a gluten sensitivity, not necessarily a food sensitivity test, but maybe a Celiac panel, or just run gliadin in the blood. You can do it, but like I said, it’s not just about reacting to gluten. That’s part of it. It could also affect the gut negatively. That’s true with some of these other foods, too. 

Let’s talk about dairy. While healing, I would recommend avoiding dairy. The only exception would be ghee, I would say. This isn’t to say that there aren’t people who can get away with eating dairy. It’s the same with a good number of these foods. Some people might be able to get away with these foods, but dairy is a common allergen. You could do a food sensitivity test to see if you’re sensitive to dairy, but these tests also aren’t perfect. I would say while healing, take a break, and then reintroduce it after you’ve healed. Or is that something you need to avoid permanently? I will give my opinion later.

People will still ask, “Are there exceptions? Are you talking about all dairy? Can I drink goat milk, raw milk, or A2 milk?” I mentioned ghee as an exception. Otherwise, I would recommend avoiding all dairy while healing.

Next on the list is corn and other grains. You want to avoid these while healing. This also includes gluten-free grains, GMO-free corn. The reason for these foods is because they can be harsh on the gut. There is actually a really good book called No Grain, No Pain by Dr. Peter Osborne that talks about the negative consequences of grain, not just grains with gluten, but gluten-free grains as well. 

As I asked the question, but didn’t answer with gluten and dairy, can you introduce grains after you’ve healed? I’ll say here, I am not completely grain-free. I was avoiding grains when I dealt with Graves’. I can’t say I completely avoid grains. We will talk more about foods you can introduce and eat on a wellness basis. 

Refined sugars. No good reason to eat refined sugars. Some things with refined sugars taste good. From a health perspective, there is definitely no good reason to eat them. 

How about natural sources of sugar, like fruit, honey, 100% maple syrup? All of these are okay, in moderation. You don’t want to overdo it. I am not saying to completely eliminate all sources of sugar. I specifically said the refined sugars are what you want to avoid while healing. 

How about natural sweeteners, like stevia, monk fruit? It’s debatable. Some practitioners will say to completely avoid them while healing. Others will say they are okay to eat. I think in most cases, if you could avoid them, avoid them. You might find them in powders if someone is adding a protein powder to a smoothie. They could be in other foods as well. If you can avoid them, avoid them. Definitely not as bad as refined sugars though. If someone is having a little bit of stevia or monk fruit, usually it’s not a big deal. Some practitioners would disagree with me, and others would agree. 

If you’re unsure, there is no good reason to eat stevia or monk fruit either. I will say that. It’s not like you have to eat them. 

Next food is foods very high in iodine. Without question, iodine is important. I am not anti-iodine. In the past, I’ve had good experience with iodine. I talk about this in my book The Hyperthyroid Healing Diet as well as Natural Treatment Solutions for Hyperthyroidism and Graves’, my other book on hyperthyroidism. 

Too much iodine can be problematic. I am not too concerned about foods like eggs or salmon, their iodine content. But kelp is pretty high in iodine. Sea vegetables in general, but especially kelp. Shellfish tends to be higher. Not as high as kelp. If someone has shellfish every now and then, it might be okay. It depends on the person. Even some sources of fish, like cod is higher in iodine. I mentioned salmon is not higher in iodine. Sardines are not higher in iodine. I talk more in detail in my diet book. I also have a bonus chapter where I talk about food sources of iodine, which you can access if you purchase the book. 

Foods very high in iodine in some cases can exacerbate hyperthyroidism or in some cases could also exacerbate the autoimmune component of Graves’. 

Alcohol is something you want to avoid while healing from your hyperthyroid condition. The big reason is the negative effect on the gut. 

I probably should mention that the reason you want to avoid anything that has a negative effect on the gut- First of all, for those with Graves’, there is the triad of autoimmunity. There are three components necessary for autoimmunity to develop. That is genetic predisposition, exposure to one or more environmental triggers, and an increase in intestinal permeability, which is the medical term for a leaky gut. That is one big reason to avoid anything that disrupts the gut. 

If someone has toxic multinodular goiter, you need a healthy gut to metabolize estrogen. Problems with metabolizing estrogen is one reason why people develop toxic multinodular goiter. Subacute thyroiditis is usually caused by a virus, and the health of the immune system is important. Most immune cells are located in the gut. 

A lot of these foods, you want to avoid because of the negative impact they can have on the gut. Just about all alcohol does this, even red wine. People ask me about red wine. It is more questionable. There are studies that show that red wine can increase permeability of the gut. There are also studies showing that the polyphenols in red wine can be beneficial to the gut microbiome. 

I think it’s more of a debate when someone has already restored their health. Can they have a glass of red wine every now and then? But while healing, I would say definitely avoid all alcohol.

The one exception would be alcohol used in herbal extracts, like ethanol. It’s such a small amount. You might wonder if you are going to have a liquid herbal extract, why don’t you just try to find an alcohol-free version? You could do that, but keep in mind, besides alcohol being such a small amount, even if it says 50% alcohol, it’s still small. 

Also, the alcohol is a better solvent than glycerin, in an alcohol-free extract. This is important because you want to get maximum benefit from the herb. Alcohol does a better job of extracting phytonutrients from the herb. That would be the exception. 

When I dealt with Graves’, I took the herbs bugleweed and motherwort as liquid extracts. I did fine. A lot of my patients take these herbs as well. Not everybody, but a lot of them do. Not concerned about alcohol in liquid extracts. 

Let’s talk about nightshades. While healing from hyperthyroidism, I would avoid them. Nightshades are tomatoes, eggplant, peppers, white potatoes, ashwagandha. Ashwagandha, I am not as concerned about it as the rest of the nightshades. If you are trying to strictly avoid them, makes sense to avoid ashwagandha, too. Ashwagandha is controversial for other reasons. The goal here is to focus on food sources. If you are interested in learning more about ashwagandha, I have another episode where I talk about it in relation to hyperthyroidism. 

With nightshades, arguably more of a concern with Graves’. They could be harsh on the gut, even if you don’t have Graves’. If you have toxic multinodular goiter, you might still want to take a break from nightshades. 

With most of these, you do want to wait until you have restored your health before reintroducing them. You could make the argument that you could reintroduce nightshades before healing later on. It does depend on the person. That would be much later on, as far as reintroductions. I talk more about nightshades in my book. I am pretty sure I have some episodes where I talk about it as well. 

This is the last one I will cover here. This one will be controversial: spinach. Maybe one you weren’t expecting. Definitely has some health benefits. I am not saying it doesn’t. The problem is it is extremely high in oxalates. I won’t get into detail with oxalates here. I have other episodes that talk about it as well as in the book. Oxalates can cause kidney stones. They can cause other problems. 

The thing is there are other green, leafy vegetables that are healthy and lower in oxalates, like green leaf lettuce, romaine lettuce, arugula, and many others. For more information, listen to some of the episodes I have on oxalates, including one where I interview Sally K. Norton, the author of the really good book Toxic Superfoods. If you read my book, I have an entire chapter where I discuss oxalates. 

Let’s go ahead and talk about foods you should continue to avoid after you have restored your health. These are foods that arguably you should never eat, even after you have restored your health. 

Gluten-containing foods are ideally avoided permanently. 100% avoidance is ideal. The question you might have: Have I completely avoided gluten 100% since 2009? I was dealing with Graves’ in 2008 and have been in remission since 2009. 

I’d be lying if I told you that I have been 100% gluten-free, that I have never had any gluten exposure. We are talking about in a perfect world, ideally, you would want to completely avoid gluten. If I go out to eat, I am not going to speak with the cook and the waiter and talk about minimizing cross-contamination. Even when I eat out, I will try to avoid gluten. Most of the time, I am avoiding gluten, but I am not taking extra precautions like if I was dealing with Celiac. I have been pretty good. There is no good reason to eat gluten. When I have been exposed to gluten, there wasn’t a good reason. I just had it. It definitely has negative consequences.

I don’t feel bad when I consume gluten. In a way, that’s not good because it’s not telling me that it’s bad. When someone eats it and reacts to it, they know they should avoid it. Just because I am not experiencing any symptoms does not mean I am not having any negative consequences. 

Gluten-containing foods, you ideally should avoid even after restoring your health. Refined sugars also. I can’t say I have 100% avoided refined sugars since 2009. Definitely greatly minimized exposure to refined sugars. That is also something you should ideally avoid. 

Gluten-free grains. I think it depends on the person. Even Dr. Peter Osborne might disagree and recommend for people to avoid grains forever. It’s been a while since I’ve read his book. I don’t know if he recommends everybody permanently, but autoimmune conditions, he would probably say to permanently avoid them. 

I don’t eat a lot of grains, but sometimes I’ll eat some rice or quinoa. I am not a big grain person to begin with. Every now and then, it’s okay. Some buckwheat every now and then. 

Corn though, I would say if you could avoid it, continuously avoid it. Even organic, GMO-free corn. It’s not just about the GMOs, but corn has been shown in the research to elicit a gluten-like response. It could also increase permeability of the gut. I would say to minimize corn. If you can completely cut it out, that would be great.

Let’s talk about dairy. There will be some practitioners who say that especially those with autoimmune conditions should not only avoid gluten permanently but dairy, too. 

I find that I can tolerate some dairy. I don’t eat a lot of dairy. I don’t drink cow’s milk. I kid around that if I had pizza, it would be cauliflower crust pizza but with my mozzarella cheese. More recently, I have been drinking goat milk kefir. I don’t consume a lot of dairy. Obviously, I am talking about my experience. 

Over the years, I have found a lot of people can tolerate reintroducing dairy. It’s not just about lactose. I am not too concerned about that. More so casein and whey. That’s one I don’t think everybody necessarily needs to eliminate, but it depends on the person. 

Alcohol. I mentioned red wine. I think you can drink it every now and then after healing. While healing, ideally take a break from it. After healing, honestly, I think most people can get away with an occasional glass of red wine. Even once a week. That’s just my opinion. I’m not an alcohol drinker. I don’t drink red wine. I don’t drink any alcohol. I would say avoid all other sources of alcohol. Minimize if you are going to drink red wine.

Spinach. For the most part, I avoid spinach. There are so many other vegetables that I can eat. Some would disagree and say spinach is so healthy. They would say it’s a myth with the oxalates. It’s not just Sally K. Norton’s book Toxic Superfoods, but well before that, Mosaic Diagnostics, which used to be known as Great Plain Laboratory, going through their workshops, they do testing for oxalates and talk about the concerns. 

I am pretty much convinced that spinach is something that’s a good idea to avoid permanently. That’s all I wanted to cover. If you haven’t yet read my book The Hyperthyroid Healing Diet, I highly recommend you doing so. If you prefer listening to audiobooks, you can get the audiobook version from Audible. I hope you found this information to be valuable. As usual, I look forward to catching you in the next episode. 

***

Hopefully you enjoyed that episode. Definitely want to expand on some things, starting with eggs. I briefly mentioned in the beginning how I don’t recommend for everyone to avoid eggs. If someone is following an AIP diet, which I commonly recommend, they do want to avoid eggs. Some people will start with a paleo diet, which eggs are allowed on. If someone is following an AIP diet, eggs are usually one of the first foods I recommend reintroducing. Even if someone is following AIP with Graves’, and they’re avoiding eggs, it’s not like they necessarily need to avoid eggs until they have completely restored their health. Wanted to mention that. 

Some people are sensitive to eggs. Some people should avoid eggs. Or maybe they will reintroduce eggs and won’t do well with them, so they will take another break from them and maybe completely avoid them at that point until they have healed. I can’t say everyone with hyperthyroidism should avoid eggs while healing.

I also wanted to mention nuts and seeds. Some might be familiar with my story, where I was eating nuts and seeds because back in 2008/2009, there wasn’t an AIP diet. I was following more of a paleo diet. Not much of an egg eater. Definitely loved eating nuts and seeds as a snack. I hit a roadblock in my recovery, gave up the nuts and seeds for a couple of months, and then I started progressing. That was my experience. 

Nuts and seeds are not AIP-friendly, but they are paleo-friendly. Also, some nuts are harsher on the gut than others, such as cashews and almonds. Almonds are also higher in oxalates. I talk more about this in my book The Hyperthyroid Healing Diet. I don’t think everybody needs to avoid nuts and seeds. If you are following AIP, you will want to avoid those. Similar with eggs. You don’t necessarily need to avoid nuts and seeds until your health has been completely restored. 

Let’s talk about spinach and other high oxalate foods. I just mentioned spinach during the presentation. I recently mentioned almonds being high in oxalates. I would be careful with other foods. One thing I probably should have mentioned is I can’t say I never eat almonds. There are so many almond substitutes, like almond milk, almond yogurt, and almond butter. That could definitely get out of hand when it comes to oxalates. 

Beets, sweet potatoes, Swiss chard are all higher. Nothing is as high as spinach. Would I minimize some of the other high oxalate foods that I mentioned in my book? Yeah, absolutely. Spinach is the one I pick on because it’s extremely high. There are so many other good substitutes. 

I want to talk about popcorn. Even though I say to avoid corn, people will ask about popcorn. I’ll be honest. It’s not like I never eat popcorn. Obviously, if I eat it, it’s organic. Make sure it’s GMO-free and all that. I do like popcorn. Every now and then, I enjoy it. 

Should we avoid popcorn? Yeah, probably. Should avoid potato chips, too. I sometimes eat the healthy versions of potato chips, too. 

I am telling you this because I am not perfect. I don’t expect you to be, especially after restoring your health. Even while restoring your health, you want to be strict. I don’t want to say “perfect,” but you do want to be more strict. It’s not like I never indulge. Even the foods I say that we should completely avoid, every now and then, I’ll have some of these foods. 

Whey protein. I mentioned how I will drink goat milk kefir. The reason is because I mentioned in another episode and in my newsletter “Healthy Gut, Healthy Thyroid,” how in 2024, I got the surprise that I have low bone density. I had a DEXA scan done. I should have gotten one years ago with my history of hyperthyroidism. 

But for years, I wasn’t consuming enough calcium. I was convincing myself that calcium is overrated. Now, the more I think about it, I was relying mostly on plant-based food sources of calcium. Wasn’t supplementing with calcium or eating dairy. Now I’m doing both. I am supplementing with not high doses of calcium but some calcium. Goat milk kefir is a good source of calcium. Sometimes, I will also use a whey protein powder. It’s up to you. 

I am not saying that you should do this. I will say that with hyperthyroidism, it does increase the risk of having low bone density. If you’re following some of these diets that I talk about in my book, if you’re avoiding dairy, that combination of hyperthyroidism and avoiding dairy for a prolonged period of time could have negative effects on your bones. 

I wish I did the DEXA scan sooner, but I’m grateful I did it when I did it and didn’t wait another 5-10 years. Just wanted to bring that up. 

No Grain, No Pain. Again, wanted to mention the name of that book by Dr. Peter Osborne. Like I said, I do eat some grains. 

One thing I didn’t mention was polka bread. I’ll eat this sometimes. I don’t eat it all the time. It has minimal ingredients. It’s gluten-free sourdough bread. It comes frozen. The one I get has buckwheat and sea salt, two ingredients. 

When I first ate It, I didn’t like it. I gave it to my two daughters. They don’t like it. They have only had it once and said they wouldn’t have it again. That was me when I bought the first loaf. This will be the first and last loaf, but I learned to like it. I actually enjoy it. When you’re not having regular bread, just like if you’re not eating pizza, gluten-free pizza tastes amazing, even though these days there are some good gluten-free pizza options.

The polka bread is not as good as making your own fresh bread. There are other breads that are better. I have learned to like it. I just wanted to bring that up. 

That’s it. Again, a lot of controversy when it comes to diet. This is just my opinion. Different practitioners will have different opinions. I have done research to get here. For more information, check out my book and other podcast episodes. 

Recently, I interviewed Dr. Heather Finley,  who explains why low stomach acid, sluggish bile flow, and post-food poisoning symptoms are often red flags in thyroid cases. She shares how conventional approaches miss the deeper causes behind SIBO, constipation, and nutrient deficiencies and how gut issues can slow thyroid hormone conversion. We also touch on practical tools like stool testing, mineral analysis, and even burp tests that offer insight when standard labs fall short. If you would prefer to listen to the interview you can access it by Clicking Here.

Dr. Eric Osansky:  

Let’s start out with a little bit more of your background. How did you start focusing on helping people with different types of gut issues? 

Dr. Heather: 

I always tell people, as sad as it sounds, I was born constipated. That sounds really dramatic. To be honest, I really don’t remember a time in my life where I didn’t have stomach pain or GI issues. I thought that it was normal until I realized in my teen years that not everybody has stomachaches every time they ate. Not everybody went a week without a bowel movement. It got me very curious about nutrition and health and so many things. 

I was also an athlete, a swimmer. I decided to go to college to study nutrition. Selfishly, I thought I was going to college to study nutrition from a sports nutrition perspective, thinking, I am swimming in college. What do I need to eat to swim as fast as possible? Maybe I can fix my gut issues in the meantime.

The reality is I ended up graduating college worse than I ever felt. I was so bloated, so constipated, having horrible GI issues, and felt like a complete impostor. I thought, maybe I am not getting something. Maybe I am in the wrong career. I don’t know what I need to do. I thought, how am I going to help other people if I can’t help myself? 

I started my first job as a dietician in the clinical setting in the hospital. Throughout that time, that furthered that belief of maybe I chose the wrong career, which just kept getting stronger. I am definitely in the wrong place. 

That’s around the time that my dad got really sick from colon cancer. Unfortunately, he ended up passing. That’s where the Hashimoto’s and hyperthyroidism came into play. This is where I started seeking out alternative methods for health after he passed. 

I believe there is a very strong grief and stress component to my thyroid diagnosis. My hair started falling out. My face was super puffy. I was so tired. I was falling asleep while talking to people. I could barely function. 

I remember going to my PCP and telling her something was wrong. “I do not feel well. Can we run a thyroid panel?” and basically being told, “You’re not overweight, so you don’t have thyroid issues. You’re probably just depressed, so you should take an antidepressant and go to therapy. You’re just grieving the loss of your dad.” I went to another provider and was told the same thing. 

I finally ended up at this other doctor’s office. They ran a thyroid panel. Not only did I have hypothyroidism, but I had Hashimoto’s pretty severely. My antibodies were super high. For the first time, I felt completely validated. There is something wrong. 

They were doing a little bit more of alternative stuff. They recommended supplements. That was the first time someone had recommended something besides MiraLAX. That opened my eyes to this other world. 

Ended up going back to school to get my doctorate in clinical nutrition with the goal of healing myself. It was more of an integrative program. That’s really where I learned to put the pieces together and realize that it’s all connected. Your thyroid, gut health, healing, energy, everything. I made myself my own case study and started integrating stuff with patients I was seeing. Here we are. It’s been quite the journey. 

Dr. Eric:

Sounds like it. I would say it’s hard to believe you went to two doctors who refused to do a thyroid panel, but I’ve heard that story before. People go to multiple doctors who are not considering thyroid. Sure enough, they eventually find someone who is willing to do a thyroid panel. In your case, the antibodies. Like you said, you were diagnosed with not just hyperthyroidism but Hashimoto’s. 

Going by the lack of some classic symptoms, they can’t tell how someone feels, but they look at you and say, “You’re not gaining weight.” When I dealt with chronic Lyme, I wasn’t having the classic Lyme symptoms, so the doctor wanted to refer me to a neurologist. I ended up seeing a functional medicine practitioner and got diagnosed with chronic Lyme. It happens with all types of conditions.

You mentioned the impact of stress and grief. Do you see that in a lot of the clients you work with as well, that relationship between stress and thyroid and the gut? 

Dr. Heather: 

We see it all the time. You can’t isolate these symptoms. I think people often shut down when you tell them stress is one of the reasons you’re having symptoms. 

The way I like to explain it to clients is stress is not just stress about your job or even a family situation. There are so many other things that cause stress on your body, including having imbalances in your gut; being overtrained, which I for sure was overtrained. I was running way too much. I was training for triathlons. I was overtrained and undereating. I wasn’t sleeping enough. All of those things, we always refer to it with our clients as a stress bucket. My stress bucket was overflowing, and I didn’t have any inputs that were decreasing stress on my body. 

It’s easy to think, if stress is causing my issues, I will never get better, without realizing there are a lot of things we can remove or improve in our lives to manage stress. Sleeping more, hydrating, eating enough, getting enough rest, doing things that are fun and having joy and pleasure in your life. It doesn’t always have to be meditation, like a lot of people think, or something that is unachievable or unsustainable. There is this huge stress component and not often in the way people think. 

Dr. Eric: 

Definitely agree with overtraining. That describes me as well prior to my Graves’ diagnosis: overtraining and doing some extreme dieting. You’re right, it’s not just emotional stressors but physical stressors we need to consider.

Since we’re going to be talking a lot about the gut, in your opinion, is it possible to heal Hashimoto’s without having a healthy gut? 

Dr. Heather: 

I don’t think so. At least I haven’t seen that. It’s so connected, as you know, as you talk about so well on your podcast. You have so many episodes on that that I’ve listened to in the past. 

It’s all connected. Everything in the body. One of the main ways that our body converts thyroid hormone is in the gut. You can’t isolate these things. We often see that it’s really bidirectional. Our clients who have undiagnosed issues, they stall when they’re working on their gut if they don’t realize they have thyroid issues, and they think the opposite is also true from a thyroid perspective. If you have a big gut infection, or if you have an absorption issue and can’t absorb nutrients from your food, it will be really hard to get to the other side. I even saw that with myself, too. 

Dr. Eric: 

You also have a quiz, which I checked out, “Why Am I Bloated?” The very first question you ask is have you ever had a food poisoning event? I wanted to talk about this. We haven’t spoken about food poisoning. A lot of people overlook this. Maybe it happened years ago, and they forgot. Maybe they just really didn’t think about it. There is a reason why this is the first question that you ask. If you could explain why you asked this question at all, let alone it being the first question on your quiz. 

Dr. Heather: 

There is this huge bucket that I’m sure many of your listeners have heard of before. It’s called IBS, irritable bowel syndrome. If you have ever gone to the doctor and told them you’re bloated, constipated, or having diarrhea, perhaps they have run some testing. Maybe they have done a colonoscopy or endoscopy or whatever, and everything has come back “normal.” They will lump you into this bucket of having IBS. It’s this bucket of, “We don’t know what’s wrong with you, but your bowels are irritable for whatever reason.” 

One of the most common triggers of IBS is food poisoning. Same with SIBO. What happens when someone has food poisoning is it damages the nerves of the migrating motor complex (MMC). Your MMC is like this after office hours cleanup crew. After you have left the office for the day, it’s the crew that comes in and takes out the trash and vacuums the floor, etc. 

That’s what it does in your gut. It sweeps things through to clean things out. You don’t want food or things sitting in your gut and fermenting and overgrowing and producing gases like methane gas and hydrogen gas. If you have had a history of food poisoning, especially if you have had a history of food poisoning that you can really identify. 

There is this one client that sticks out in my mind, and it’s relevant to when we’re recording this podcast, around July 4. She said, “I know what happened. I went to a July 4 BBQ, and I ate watermelon. It was bad. I have never felt the same way since.” A lot of people have that story.

People perhaps have had food poisoning, and they don’t remember. Maybe it was really mild. Either way, what happens is it damages the nerves of the MMC, which affects your motility, which is the movement of food and waste through your bowels and the body’s ability to clear stuff out. Things sit and ferment and slow down. It affects the whole process. Food poisoning is a very important thing to know about related to someone’s history. 

Dr. Eric: 

If someone’s digestive symptoms began after a food poisoning event, then that is definitely something they need to pay attention to. If they are having those bloating and gas symptoms that are so common with IBS and SIBO. When you do your health history, and you ask that question, “I never even thought about that. 11 years ago, I got food poisoning. Ever since then, I didn’t think about it until you asked that question.” Do you have that happen sometimes? 

Dr. Heather: 

Totally. We’ll have people say, “Oh, that reminds me. I traveled abroad, and I got really sick. Then I thought I was okay. You’re right. I haven’t been the same since.” Sometimes, they haven’t connected it yet. It triggers this process of- 

For us, knowing someone’s health history and timeline is really important because oftentimes, there is a triggering event like food poisoning or a really stressful period in their life, etc. It really is a domino effect for a lot of people over time. Maybe that was the straw that broke the camel’s back. What made your gut so vulnerable to that food poisoning? Not everybody that gets food poisoning ends up with really severe gut issues. We want to understand what happened before and after that as well that set you up for being susceptible to that, too. 

Dr. Eric: 

If someone tells you that their symptoms started after a food poisoning event, does that change your approach? Are you more likely to recommend a SIBO breath test? What would be some of the next steps? Do you do comprehensive stool testing on everybody? I’ll let you take over and chat about that. 

Dr. Heather: 

There are several things we can do and look at. I think it depends on somebody’s symptoms. A SIBO breath test could be helpful if their symptoms are looking like SIBO. 

Honestly, I prefer a comprehensive stool test, like you mentioned. It will look a lot more at the why. It’s one thing to know if you have SIBO, and that can be important. It’s part of the picture. We will still be asking the question of how these bacteria get in your small intestine when they are not supposed to be there. Is it a digestive insufficiency? Is it a motility issue? 

If someone says, “I don’t go to the bathroom every day,” or “I go to the bathroom, but it never feels like enough,” or “I am constipated for 3-4 days, and then I have diarrhea,” so they have overflow diarrhea, like a lot of our clients. A comprehensive stool test can be really helpful.

Even lion’s mane mushrooms can be really helpful for repairing the nerves. There are other probiotics and things you can do, but we love recommending things that are going to help turn everything back on. 

Dr. Eric: 

Let’s talk about constipation. You mentioned you were born with it. Did you take a lot of antibiotics when you were younger? I know I did. I would go twice a week in my teens and 20s. I don’t know if it was the antibiotics, but I took them pretty regularly when I was younger. You’re nodding your head, so it sounds like that was the case with you as well. 

Dr. Heather: 

I was a child of the ‘80s and ‘90s where antibiotics were common practice. You get a mild ear infection, and here they are. I took a lot of antibiotics as a kid. I’m sure that did not help. That’s a big trigger for a lot of people, especially in the little years, where your gut is so vulnerable. 

One thing I probably have never shared publicly. I have three kids. One of my goals with my children- Obviously, if they needed antibiotics, and it was life-threatening, I would give them to them. One of my goals was trying to get to age two without antibiotics. So far, two out of three were there. My other one Is not quite two yet; she is only seven months. It’s amazing to see. 

My kids are super healthy. They rarely ever get sick. It’s incredible to see what fostering a healthy microbiome can do. It’s nobody’s fault. There was a lack of knowledge at the time. People didn’t know what the gut microbiome was when I was still a kid. The science is still really new, which is wild to think about. 

Dr. Eric: 

I agree. That’s a good goal for children. Adults, too, to minimize antibiotics. If they need it, I agree, but unfortunately, a lot of children, including myself, and it sounds like you as well, it’s very common. Many times, we took the antibiotics when we didn’t need them. 

What are some other factors? Low thyroid can cause problems with motility. SIBO, we mentioned. Are those some of the more common things you see in your practice? If there is anything else you’d like to mention when it comes to constipation. 

Dr. Heather: 

I would say there is a handful of things we commonly see, food poisoning being one of them. Definitely thyroid issues. We see tons of undiagnosed thyroid issues. It’s often a huge hurdle for our clients. 

They end up getting the right testing. We can run testing, but I can’t prescribe thyroid meds. It’s finding a provider we can work with there, or figuring out how we can do it from more holistic approaches as well for some people. The slower your thyroid, the slower your gut will be.

Another thing we see contributing to motility is stress. When you’re stressed, your body is not worried about clearing your bowels. You can see the opposite. You can have that gut-brain reaction of that dumping syndrome. Everybody probably has experienced that. You get nervous, and you start running to the bathroom. 

Chronic stress over time will slow the bowels because you are diverting blood flow away from the gut into your muscles because your body doesn’t know the difference between whatever stressor and actually being chased by a bear. 

Another thing that we see contributing to slow motility is upper GI related stuff. Low stomach acid, low elastase or poor pancreatic output, and poor bile flow. You need to be able to break down your food, and you need stomach acid enzymes and bile to do that. 

If we are seeing a disconnect with how someone is actually breaking down their food, specifically with stomach acid, your stomach has to fill with acid in order to empty. We see people who have been on PPIs or are chronically stressed over time, taking things that have lowered their stomach acid. As a result, everything downstream with motility isn’t working either.

The last thing I’ll mention, which is very common, is mineral deficiencies. Minerals are like the spark plugs for energy for our body. We need minerals to turn the electricity back on. It’s kind of a catch-22. You need minerals to make stomach acid, and you need stomach acid to absorb minerals. You often have both that you need to address systematically. Things like sodium, potassium, magnesium will help draw water to the bowels, but potassium will help those bowel muscles contract. It’s finding the right combination of things for people as well. 

Dr. Eric: 

Sticking to the topic of low stomach acid. There is not a great test to look for stomach acid. Do you just assume that most of your patients have it? Do you do things like the butane HCl challenge? When it comes to determining if someone has low stomach acid, what approach do you take? 

Dr. Heather: 

I am not a huge fan of the butane HCl challenge because I don’t want to irritate an ulcer or something that’s there that we don’t know about. That is a strategy you can do. 

We prefer the baking soda test. You’re consuming a quarter teaspoon of baking soda in water and seeing if you burp. If you burp within three minutes, likely stomach acid is okay. If you burp within 3-5 minutes, would say you’re halfway past. If you don’t burp, which is very common for our clients, likely you failed. 

We can also look at testing, too. We have some clients who are not doing that. The results were inconclusive. Obviously, it’s not a clinical test. It’s just an experiment. It’s something cheap and easy you could do at home.

Some things we look for on testing would be on a stool test, if we see really high fat in the stool, so if steatocrit is fine, that could possibly indicate stomach acid. If we see pancreatic elastase as low, that can possibly indicate stomach acid as well. 

On a hair mineral test, one thing we often see related to stomach acid is low sodium as well as cobalt being off. That can indicate perhaps some digestive insufficiencies. We can look at the baking soda test and also just look at symptoms. Does it feel like food is sitting in your stomach like a brick? Are you bloated 1-2 hours after eating? Do you have undigested food in your stool? Are your stools greasy, incomplete, etc.? Usually we are pulling from all of that and trying to figure out if someone could benefit from bitters or some kind of digestive support like butane. 

The most obvious thing on testing that I didn’t mention would be H-pylori. It’s the most common infection in the world, and it lowers stomach acid. If someone has H-pylori that’s really high, likely there is some issue there, so we want to address it. 

Dr. Eric: 

Also, they could go through your quiz. You ask some questions to point them in the direction to see if they have low stomach acid. You mentioned one of the questions when going through your quiz is greasy stools as well. You mentioned low stomach acid. Could that also be a sign? If you have greasy stools that stick to the toilet, also problems with bile flow? 

Dr. Heather: 

We do see that a lot in our thyroid patients. The gallbladder and the thyroid, you need bile to absorb fat soluble vitamins. We know that even Vitamin D is very important for the thyroid, so those two things can be connected. 

Greasy and sticky stool often indicate perhaps low stomach acid, but also does somebody have a gallbladder? Are they actually creating enough bile and surging enough bile? Is their bile flow stagnant and more sticky, sludgy bile? Do we need something to help improve that? They often go together. 

Dr. Eric: 

I would imagine you agree that there are too many gallbladder surgeries these days. Not to say there is not a time and place for them, but way too many people get their gallbladder removed. 

Dr. Heather: 

So many. I was even talking to someone today who told them they had a couple gallstones, so they took their gallbladder out 6-7 years ago. Now they are having recurrent SIBO and upper GI pain. I wish that wasn’t the case because I hear that all the time. We see a lot of clients a couple years after gallbladder removal that now have other GI issues. 

I always tell my students in my practitioner course that bile is the MVP of digestion. Without bile, nothing else works. It is an antimicrobial. It helps coat the lining of the small intestine to prevent bacteria from growing there. We need bile. We really need healthy gallbladders for that. 

Dr. Eric: 

I am bringing up this conversation because I also had coincidentally- Yesterday, my wife was asking me questions about the gallbladder. It turns out she knows someone whose 15-year-old daughter scheduled today, as we speak, so she already got the gallbladder surgery probably. 

I told her the gallbladder is not usually the problem. It’s usually a bile metabolism problem that could be affected by diet, oral contraceptives. I hate to see anybody, let alone someone that young, who for all I know, maybe they did see a holistic doctor, but my guess is they didn’t. They were developing gallstones. It’s a very young age to experience that. 

500,000 gallbladder surgeries in the United States a year, something like that. Some of those need to be done, but a lot of those could have been prevented. They often need to be done because they get to the point where it becomes an emergency situation. If the person was more aware of some of the factors that cause the bile metabolism problem- That’s why we’re having this conversation, to try to prevent people from, if at all possible, which many times it is, getting their gallbladder removed.

What are some other common gut issues that you see in your practice? Actually, before you answer that question, what are your thoughts on parasites? There are a lot of different perspectives with parasites. Some people treat everybody for parasites. Some people just do stool testing. I know you said you did stool testing, maybe not specifically for parasites. Maybe some people will see if the stool test come back positive for parasites, and they treat it. if it’s not positive, they won’t treat it. I want your perspective here. 

Dr. Heather: 

There is so much controversy over parasites. It’s interesting, especially on the online Instagram world we live in. You see some crazy stuff online.

We definitely have clients who have parasites. We see it on testing. I definitely don’t treat everybody for parasites. That being said, we have put clients on protocols for other things. They have paths of what look like parasites. 

Parasites are a normal part of our environment. Not all of them are necessarily going to cause tons of issues. Do you want to have a ton of parasites in your gut? No, absolutely not. It can be very easy to get terrified on the internet about parasites. Sometimes, when you see people posting about parasite cleanses and showing pictures, not everything they’re posting is an actual parasite although it might look like that. 

Yes, people do have parasites but not probably as much as the internet makes you think. Maybe that’s not as much of a problem as the internet makes you think. 

Dr. Eric: 

I would agree. It sounds like we’re on the same page. Not treating everybody randomly for parasites. In some people, they can be an issue. 

Dr. Heather: 

Totally. 

Dr. Eric: 

I’m sure you see a lot of things, but anything common in your practice as far as gut-related issues? 

Dr. Heather: 

One thing that I think is really important to mention, especially with the thyroid, is we actually see a lot of depleted gut microbiomes. Whether you have done stool testing before or not, for somebody listening to this, it’s very easy to go into a stool test, thinking, what bad bacteria is going to be on my test? I need to kill off all this bacteria in my gut, which certainly can be the case if you have SIBO or something else. 

A lot of times, we see clients where it’s really not an issue of too many “bad bacteria.” It’s actually an issue of lack of diversity in your gut, lack of resilience of your gut, a low gut immune system. The marker for that is secretory IgA. 

We see clients who have done so many elimination diets, so many gut protocols. As a result, their secretory IgA, which is like your gut’s bodyguard. It helps prevent things from residing in your gut that shouldn’t. It helps keep your immune system healthy and strong. That is super depleted, so that is why people are having so many food sensitivities and reactions. The lower your IgA typically, the more food reactions you have.

Part of that picture is there are keystone bacteria, like Bifida bacterium, Akkermansia. These are all keystone bacteria that are so depleted. Our gut has zero resilience. It’s easy to think that bad bacteria are to blame, or SIBO is to blame. The reality is that the gut needs some love. It needs some prebiotic fiber. It needs some good probiotics that will reside in the gut. It needs some production of short-chain fatty acids. It needs that to help reduce inflammation. 

If someone has Hashimoto’s and has antibodies, one of the best things you can do from a gut perspective is help feed good gut bacteria in your gut. When your good gut bacteria have food, they produce short-chain fatty acids. Those are anti-inflammatory to your body, your brain, your gut. It’s overall going to reduce inflammation; therefore, indirectly improving the antibody picture that you see. 

Dr. Eric: 

I like that, the gut’s bodyguard. I haven’t heard that before. Secretory IgA, I see a lot of people with depressed secretory IgA. Want to get that to healthy levels. 

Getting back to the thyroid. What testing do you recommend? It sounds like you recommend the antibodies. Can you get specific? What antibodies do you look at? Reverse T3? 

Dr. Heather: 

We have a variety of people who come to us. Some with thyroid testing and some without. I really like to look at the whole picture, so I want to see antibodies, free T3, reverse T3. One of the common things that we see is low free T3. Is that something that you see in your practice? 

Dr. Eric: 

I work with Hashimoto’s, but I do see more people with Graves’. Obviously, the people with Graves’ usually have the opposite problem, elevated free T3. I do see a lot of people when their thyroid is so-called normal, where the TSH is within the lab range, which doesn’t always mean it is within optimal range, but T4 will also be looking okay. T3 is low. Maybe that person has a conversion issue. I’m not sure if that’s what you’re getting at.

When I don’t see a hyper patient with elevated thyroid hormones, it is common to see that T3 on the lower side. Many times, I’m sure you see this, too, where it’s within the lab range, but it’s not within that optimal range. That free T3 might be 2.3, which would be within most lab ranges, but lower than what we want to see. 

Dr. Heather: 

Yeah. Their TSH is normal. We have a client like this right now. Her TSH is actually lower than it should be because she is overmedicated. Her free T3 is still so low. There is definitely a conversion issue, where her free T3 is 2.3, like you said. As a result, she is super bloated; her bowels aren’t moving; her motility is definitely an issue; and she still has a lot of the symptoms of hypothyroidism because the conversion is not there. There is definitely some gut stuff going on, some stress-related stuff going on, some nervous stuff, mineral stuff, all the things. 

To answer the question, I got on a little bit of a tangent. Yes, a full thyroid panel, antibodies, free T3. Really helpful.

We also like to look at iron labs. Ferritin, iron. We do see a lot of low ferritin, whether that’s from the gut or something else.

Correlated with that, I love to do HTMA, hair mineral testing, because it helps inform the pieces of the thyroid issue, some of the pieces of the iron issue, and of course stool testing. 

Dr. Eric: 

Can you talk more about hair testing? That’s another controversial test. I do like hair testing, so I’m definitely in favor of it. There are some functional medicine practitioners who would dismiss it and say hair tests aren’t reliable. Why do you do hair testing on your clients? 

Dr. Heather: 

Honestly, I love stool testing, but my favorite test we do is hair testing. I have seen it change the game so quickly for so many people. 

Minerals are foundational to every metabolic practice in the body. Like I was saying earlier, we see a lot of clients who are so depleted. They have done everything by the book, except for the fact that their minerals are so depleted, so their body doesn’t have the manpower to do what it needs to do, from the thyroid perspective, from an energy perspective, metabolism, all the things. 

Hair testing is controversial. One of the biggest things you have to look for is a lab that doesn’t chemically wash the hair because that will alter the results. We use Trace Elements for hair testing. That is the only lab that I’ll use. It’s based here in Dallas/Ft. Worth, where I am. 

There are tons of research supporting hair testing. You just have to look for it. 

The reason I like it is because it’s a window into your last three months of mineral status. It’s a little different than blood testing. Your blood test will look at what your magnesium looks like right now in this moment in time. Your body will always push minerals to your blood to keep things “normal.” If you have minerals off in your blood, likely there is a very serious issue. If your potassium is really high or really low, you’re probably in the ER with some serious problems. 

The hair testing can help us predict and prevent patterns before they ever happen in the blood because your body will store minerals in your tissues, including your hair tissue. We can see patterns. 

The most important thing about mineral testing is you will look more at how the minerals are all interacting with each other versus one mineral itself. 

Seeing that magnesium is high or low isn’t as helpful as seeing, “Oh wow, your magnesium is in a loss pattern, but your boron is really low. That’s why you’re not absorbing the magnesium,” or “You are having to use so much magnesium to have a bowel movement because you’re constipated. Probably your sodium is really low, and your potassium is really low.” It can help you understand the clinical picture a lot better. 

Dr. Eric: 

I’m on board with hair testing. We have had a few others talk about hair testing. 

We jumped around and covered a lot of different things. Is there anything else related to the gut, the thyroid that I should have asked you? Anything else you want to say? 

Dr. Heather: 

I feel like we covered most of it. I’ll probably think of something right when we turn this episode off. 

Just to bring it all together, everything is connected: your gut issues, thyroid issues. Supporting your gut will support your thyroid and vice versa. Instead of isolating these pieces, it really is helpful to look at it all together. 

If you have bottomed out with your gut, and you haven’t explored your thyroid, that would be a really important piece. Vice versa as well. There can be a lot in your gut that can affect your thyroid, too. 

Dr. Eric: 

I do have one last question related to your health. As far as someone who deals with chronic constipation, what is a realistic timetable to get someone to the point where, if they’re only having a couple of bowel movements per week, they are having regular bowel movements? 

Dr. Heather: 

That’s so hard to answer. To be honest, sometimes I have clients who I think we are going to be in the long haul. This is going to take some time. And they see progress really quickly. The opposite, too. Sometimes I think this is super straightforward, and it’s just not. You start uncovering things.

I always tell people to expect about a month for every year they’ve had symptoms. I feel like that is not even the most helpful explanation. It can go so many different ways. The program I run is six months. The reason for that is because it does take time. Of course, there are people who see results a lot faster than that, and some people need longer. Doesn’t change overnight, especially when it’s related to chronic constipation. 

If there is a thyroid component, as you know, it can take a while to figure out the right cocktail of things that will work. It’s not always super straightforward. 

Just be gracious with yourself and the process if you’re on that journey. Trust your gut. That sounds really cheesy. If you feel like you’re missing something, get a second opinion or ask somebody. There probably is another piece there. 

Dr. Eric: 

How can people find out more about you, Dr. Heather? Tell them about your website and your podcast. 

Dr. Heather: 

Probably the easiest way to find me is on Instagram. You can look up my name, Dr. Heather Finley. My website is GutTogetherProgram.com. If you want to take the quiz, it takes you two minutes or less. You will get a short video after you get your results with some things you can do to improve whatever we determine is the cause of your bloating. Those are some good places to start. 

Dr. Eric: 

Sounds good. The quiz is 11 questions, and they’re pretty simple. It only took a couple of minutes to go through that. Check out Dr. Heather’s podcast as well. 

Thank you so much. This was really a great conversation. We covered a lot of different things related to both the gut and the thyroid as well as outside of those things, including hair testing, which does relate to the gut and the thyroid. Thank you so much, Dr. Heather. 

Dr. Heather: 

Thanks for having me.